Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?

Matthew 7:12 - 27

12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Christ Himself said to judge a true prophet/believer by fruit and actions.

He also says that not everyone who claims him as Lord are known by Him.... and it will not be the wide road to find Him.

Again:

If someone does NOT have love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, patience, etc., then I do not assume that they are a follower of Christ.

I didn't see this mentioned before...but Saul/Paul has 3 differnet "accounts" of his supposed "conversion" in the New Testament, which contradict each other...demonstrating Saul/Luke is lying about it.

Here are two of them:


Acts 9:7 "The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone."
[link to www.biblegateway.com]


Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
[link to www.biblegateway.com]

Last Edited by SoldierofYah on 02/25/2010 04:26 PM

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

The term was anyone not anything. Light is not a person (in the physical sense).

To me this vision is much like the one in Daniel, which gives credibility in my opinion.

Daniel 10

4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. 6 His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

Your point is very valid......however, I am NOT saying that: For as we know, neither Jesus nor Peter was working for Lucifer(that's not to say that either one of them hadn't been fooled by him, at one time or another during their life spans).....cause they both had you know!?!


Doesn't bother you that he said: "Let the women keep silent in the churches"?


True....and I understand that.....however, much of what we receive these days from our historic/scientific resources is sadly, to tampered with, to get the truth from! :(

I never said take Pauls letters OUT. But we need to read between the lines and use one of the gifts Paul himself wrote about: discernment of spirits. If we do that we will see clearly where Paul writes opinion and where what he writes is ok. In I Corinthians talking about marriage he says in some places it's from the Lord, and other places it's from him.
Romans 7 shows he is doing some evil things he doesn't want to do and not doing some good things he should be doing. It doesn't say what specifically but it doesn't have to.
One thing is unique about Pauls letters, and that is they are letters that were intended for either a curch group or an individual. Unlike the books of law, prophecy, poetry, and the gospels that were meant for the whole nation and the world, Pauls writings are personal letters intended for small groups of people or one person.
I've written some inspired letters to friends too, can I be in the Bible? But some might be opinion and not every word inspired. That's exactly what Paul did. I have seen Pauls writings used quite a bit to suppress women in churches, and to make guys cut their hair, and to make women not cut their hair.
The Lord didn't put Paul in the Bible, man did. And man left out quite a few books as well.

Yep

Yes... and Matthew, John and James are the writers who seem to possess the fruits of the Spirit more than any of the others.

I'm not talking about perfection. I never once mentioned perfection! I'm talking about the fruits of the Spirit!

C'mon now, you guys aren't silly, you know what I'm talking about!

Someone is either kind or they are not. Their behaviour may vary, as is human, but there is a difference in the demeanor, their spirit.

I am not the brightest bulb, not the best bible scholar. Just intuitively, I love my red letter bible. I love Luke, Mark, the Psalms,Revelations, Genesis. But I always loathed Paul.

I think he was a double agent, for the Romans.He went from slaying Christians with his sword, to slaying Christians with his pen and ink.He appointed himself an apostle, appointed himself the caretaker of the ongoing church, and then the church fathers, fellow Roman Illuminati, voted on which books were in and out of the bible.


Jesus Christ had no control over what the Romans did to his teachings after His death. That was all Paul, the great usurper. Jesus chose His other disciples, and Paul chose himself.

NO one has said that salvation is earned by action.

Not one person.

Exactly.

I am more than willing to talk about whatever you think would be my bias.... but I have given you my reasons already.

Of the four Gospels, Matthew has a "special" quality, to me. Luke and Mark especially seem "watered down", as if the writers of those just copied what Matthew wrote.

John is my 2nd favorite, not far behind Matthew.

Last Edited by SoldierofYah on 02/25/2010 04:48 PM

You can espouse all that you wish but without FAITH it is nothing.

You can say that you believe in Jesus Christ all you like but if you don't adhere to His message and teachings than all your belief is for naught.

When you attack the integrity of the Word of God, The Bible, you attack Jesus Christ's absolute authority and Creator and God.

When you reject one part of the Bible, you reject IT ALL.

God doesn't make mistakes. When you imply that God made one when He allowed a book to be placed in the Bible that Man supposedly put there.

Its either one or the either. There is no compromise with God.

Its ALL HIS WORD OR NONE.

The chose has been given you and the choice you will have to make.

Jesus Christ says specifically about those of you who call on His name but do not believe His message:

Matthew 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Remember these words and remember not to fall into this trap of Satan.

I Soooo agree!

Matthew 15:14

"Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Preposterous.

So Constantine and his cronies were God's special agents? They and they alone, in deciding which books to include in the Bible?

What about how the Protestants reject the Apocrypha and other books that the Catholics include in their Bible?

It was put together by men. Some parts are good doctine, and others not and should be excluded.

Last Edited by SoldierofYah on 02/25/2010 04:40 PM

Exactly. And I believe that YOU are blind, 882450.

God even uses evil men to His purpose for good, why is it then hard for you to accept that He used the Romans?

Is it more of an act of faith to believe in Christ and the Creator based on the Old Testament, the words of Christ, and the testimony of Creation? Or is it more an act of faith to blindly accept a book that a group of men picked and chose and directly benefited politically from which texts were chosen?

Aye I who profess the Word of God and you who reject it, The Bible.

You who reject the testimony of Paul of Jesus Christ, who God allowed in HIS WILL to be placed in the good book, The Bible.

Yes you call me blind but if that is what it means to be blind than I'd rather be blind to see Jesus Christ than to have sight but see nothing.

Did Jesus not say "that we would do greater works than He"?

If you are 'One with that power', that can heal the blind: Then you have no fear of falling into any so called "pits"! And also keep in mind: Perfect love casts out ALL fear!

peace

I know, I'm just saying that argument is invalid.



Here's the actual verse.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

Is the full verse in Corinthians. I don't know what the status of the Church of Corinth was at the time of Paul writing this, but beyond any specific reason for saying this, Paul was trying to bring back the 10 tribes of Israel to following the Law.

These churches rallied and gathered around the name of Jesus (like in John 10), and Paul was trying to get them to embrace their Hebrew heritage. As Yeshua said, "If you love me, you'll keep my commands."

Keeping the commands is an active order, rather than a passive one. In other ones, you can't slap a Jesus fish on the back of your car, call yourself a Christian, and ignore half the Bible.

Does 1 Corinthians 14 apply to today's churches?
I guess that depends on the church. If there's a church out there with women who preach with their breasts and not their tongues, then I'd probably thump them with 1 Corinthians 14.

Last Edited by Zedakah on 02/25/2010 04:44 PM

Personally, I like Matthew best myself (0f the synoptic gospels). But any scholar will say that Mark is the original and the rest just expanded on it (or were added to).

Does this include The Books of Enoch?

Which were originally in the Bible?

All of you have been warned with specific scripture.
When you deny one part of the Word of God, you deny it all.

The Book, The Bible has been given us as a testimony to Jesus Christ.

Remember it well. It is not a pick and choose book, but the entire account is valid.

You will accept it or reject it as you accept or reject Christ.

Remember this well and God Bless.

Our Lord Jesus Christ comes soon and quickly.

God Bless!!!

You lie.

Where ever did you get the idea that the Bible was the "Word of God"? :(

God's WORD is the air you breath....the sun that shines....the flowers that bloom.....the rain that nourishes!

Please my friend, learn to be 'ONE WITH GOD'........NOT, 'One with a book' that has been so tampered with by man, that I can hardly recommend it as anything to do with GOD! :(

Can you site that please.

Not saying there isn't something to that effect, but would like to see in context and from what source/book/author.

Last Edited by SoldierofYah on 02/25/2010 04:54 PM