Was Paul - aka Saul of Tarsus - a False Apostle?

Paul is my favorite apostle.

Plenty of them here at GLP. Kinda strange, they post more
threads than any other denomination/group. They deny Jesus
Christ is God and they like to call God YAH. Their reason,
makes them feel holier than thou.

God bless you for saying this TwinSister.


p.s. Who is the woman...your avatar?

Has anyone here read 'Caesar's Messiah' by Joseph Atwill?

It is a study of the New Testament as compared to Josephus' historical text of the same time period.

If that's how you feel, get rid of the "HalleluYahs" from your songs, vocab, whatever!!!!

Easy answer yes he was, he was a bit of a control freak weirdo, we should actually call the fukd up religion we supposedly worship in the West Paulanity.

Paul appointed himself as the 13th Apostle. He says Jesus talked to him numerous times, kind of filled Paul in on all that "other stuff" the real Apostles never knew about.

Look at the gospels and you see page after page of RED letter (Jesus talking) but read Paul and you see almost NONE. Look at 1st Corinthians where ch 11 v 24. Here Paul does tell us that Jesus had spoken to him and Paul even "quotes what Jesus said". Read it. Read it and THINK. Did Jesus really say that? Read it, again. What is wrong with it?

Why do most modern (and especially Holy Roller) churches boast Paul? Because Paul tells them they can practice being a lifelong piece of crap and are "saved by grace". Remember what Jesus said warning about Pharisees. Remember that near the end, after years of Paul "having seen the light and becoming Christian", when pressed for the truth Paul loudly proclaimed "I AM a Pharisee".

Two clear choices: keep the Commandments and enter into eternal life with Jesus. Or, follow the path of perversion and arrogance set down by Paul and enter into eternal Hell.

There were but 12 Apostles. When Judas sold out Jesus, Judas was replaced by Matthias. Not by Saul/Paul. That makes 12 Apostles. Twelve gates in Heaven, twelve pillars, twelve tribes. Not THIRTEEN. No place for a man coming along later and saying..Oh I met Jesus on the road and He appointed me to be another Apostle.

Yes in Revelation 2 Jesus commends Ephesians for casting out bogus Apostles. This is in Asia, and Paul even admits that "asia has rejected me". Also in Rev 2, Jesus brings up the case of Balaam and condemns the abomination of "eating meat sacrificed to idols". Jesus condemns that practice THREE times. Yet "the apostle Paul" contradicts Jesus and says it is nothing to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Paul says to do that abomination, just like Balaam did.

Saul/Paul claims he met Jesus on the road and several times after when Paul received further teaching from Jesus. So, if Jesus was coming to Paul and "filling him in", how come Jesus never made an appearance to ANY of his real Apostles and saying something like, "Hey, just wanted you guys to know that I have suddenly found a brand NEW Apostle and his name is Saul or Paul. He was attacking Christianity but now he is a wonderful guy and I expect you to meet him"? Yet, Jesus never spoke of Paul to his real Apostles, never "wonderfully appeared" to his real Apostles (as Paul claimed he was having revelations from Jesus) never appeared to his real Apostles and "filled them in on the glory" of dear Paul.

Paul was a fake. Paul was a bogus "apostle". Paul is and remained a Pharisee (as he even admitted). Jesus foretold of the coming of those to pervert the gospel. Go in virtually any "Christian church" today and they teach Paul and not Jesus.

^this...

Is this another denying the Gospel thread? Imagine, the pride
of people stating the first Christians were wrong? How are
we to know how to get to Heaven then? God has kept the world
in the dark for 2000 years.


RRRRRRiiiiiiGGGGGGHHHHHHtttttt.

Paul=Revelation 2:2=Genesis 49:27=Matthew 7:15=remember ye always need three witnesses...

yes, he was

The beloved Disciple was a disciple of John the Baptist yet she wrote the Gospel of John and Revelation and 1 Epistle. The other two Epistles were letters from Peter and Paul.

Ro:11:13:
For I speak to you Gentiles,
inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
I magnify mine office:

The 12 Apostles stayed in Jerusalem after Stephen was murdered, gathering lost Jews, choosing Saul just made the transition to the Gospel reaching the Gentiles faster.

Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.

Last Edited by MHz on 01/02/2013 05:40 PM

A very strong case can be made against Paul using Paul's own teachings - whom Paul claimed were from Jesus.

You are reading your Bible with one eye closed, if you haven't noticed these flaws OR if you believe the Bible to be inerrant then why aren't you following Paul's teachings?

Paul's own words condemn him. (Sorry this is long)

1.What did Jesus say in Matthew 23 about Pharisees.

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

Paul was a Pharisee - he says it himself!

Acts 23:6 “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

So now where does Paul show his true Pharisee colours? Remember Satan is rather tricky and devious according to you guys!

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

Where did Jesus preach this?

If a woman truly believes Paul's teachings are the word of GOD then they should not be entitled to speak in Church, and if men believe the same then they should enforce the same..

I know Paul is 100% wrong here, but do you? JESUS never taught this!

But there is more -

1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

So if a woman is trying to teach a man, by posting here, they are also breaking a law stated by Paul!

But worse they are, (according to Paul anyway), breaking a commandment from the Lord! (see below)

I know Paul is 100% wrong here, but do you? JESUS never taught this!

Paul was just a man! And yet he continued the discrimination against women, perpetrated originally by "mad" Moses, up till now and beyond!

But it gets worse!

1 Corinthians 11:6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

Where did Paul's righteousness disappear to? Where did Jesus preach this?

This one Pharisee, Paul, has authorized 50% of the population to be discriminated against! If you believe Paul's words are GOD's words then women must not teach, nor usurp man's authority, but be silent!

So if you believe Paul - shouldn't women stop talking on religious matters and only discuss things with their husbands?

What religions do these teachings sound like? It certainly doesn't sound Christian!

I'm sure you have missed most of this in your studies BUT I am opening your closed eye.

Also note - Paul lied in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 to justify his oppression of women “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

What? Adam didn't eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? Adam wasn't tempted? That is totally untrue!

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

But there is an even bigger problem!

God allegedly gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

Jesus (the Son of God) gave two commandments although the first is re-stating Commandment 1 of the 10 commandments.

Mark 12:30-31 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second like it, is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Are commandments laws that must be obeyed?

But hang on Paul a man, and a Pharisee (remind yourself about what Jesus thought of Pharisees in Matthew 23) says this –

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Can a man make a commandment – Answer NO! Paul certainly got a bit full of himself here. But no-one notices... Did you know he wrote these things?

If these are commandments from the Lord, as Paul claims you had better buy some shears to get women's uncovered heads in Church shorn.

Jesus (the Son of God) made 1 extra commandment BUT Paul says all his instructions are commandments!

So you see your dilemma. Everything Paul said was a commandment from the Lord, he mentions "the law" when telling women to refer to their husbands only, and he teaches things Jesus never said. Should women be shorn?

So who do you believe Jesus or Paul?

If you believe in Jesus’, the Son of God's teachings over Paul’s teachings why hasn’t anyone pointed this out to you?

Why didn’t you notice these problems? If you didn't you are studying poorly.

Why didn't your Preacher teach you this vital information?

Paul is obviously wrong but in his being wrong he wrongs 50% of the population in one fell swoop - WOMEN!

Do you still wish to maintain Paul's righteousness or is that just another Bible Babble word?

So here you have a set of books called the Bible, where you can intimately study what Jesus, (the Son of GOD), is alleged to have said, and yet you keep wanting to study and quote man.

May your eyes be opened so that you might see!

Why do believers miss such important things?

Shouldn't you be looking in the OT Laws that gave women the right to question the one giving the sermon while the sermon is being delivered?

You probably noticed that I put Chapter and verse into my post so that people can analyse simply.

Which exact Chapter and verse are you thinking of? If it is in the OT it will be as flawed as that in the NT.

Just because people like Moses said "GOD said" doesn't make it so.

I look forward to seeing which Chapter and Verse you are referring to.

Acts 20
"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called to him the elders of the assembly. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, after what manner I was with you all the time, serving the Master with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward [Elohim], and faith toward our Master Yeshua Messiah. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:"
"I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Wherefore watch ye, remembering that by the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears. And now I commend you to [Elohim], and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you the inheritance among all them that are sanctified. I coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring you ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Master Yeshua, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him, sorrowing most of all for the word which he had spoken, that they should behold his face no more. And they brought him on his way unto the ship."

Does that sound like they found him to be a false apostle or does it sound like they loved him dearly and couldn't bear not seeing him anymore? He left them on very good terms. However, in that meeting he prophesied that grievous wolves would come to Ephesus and not spare the flock. Others would draw away disciples to themselves.

This is what happens in the progression of those whom reject the writings authored by the Holy Spirit through Paul.
1. Because they have not been enlightened as to understanding, seeming differences aren't reconciled.
2. Peter is then thrown out because Peter cautions us that readers twist Paul's words because of lack of understanding.
3. Acts then is thrown out because it chronicles Paul's mission
4. James is then thrown out because he welcomed Paul.
5. Luke then becomes suspect because he wrote Acts.
6. Then these people suddenly find themselves with just John, Matthew and Mark - ALL of which chronicle the life of Yahushua/Jesus up to His death.
7. They end up after all of this, rejecting Jesus.

Why did David love the law on the Lord, and extoll us to meditate upon it always?

What is the Holy Spirit commanding you here?
1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Why do many Christians believe that the law is a copy and shadow of spiritual realities? Because it's true.

The serpent (sensual desires) appealed to the emotions and senses (experience, eyes, taste, smell) and the rational thought followed along. 

"Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (James 1:14-15).

"I SAW two hundred shekels of silver, I COVETED them, and TOOK them ... I SINNED" (Joshua 7:20-21

When "man" and "woman" are united in marriage.... Rational conscious thought is united to the will, it is what marriage is in the spiritual sense. A person therefore who thinks about stealing because of greed for example, and then acts on it despite his conscience knowing better is like Adam and Eve.

So let's go back to the Holy Spirit's words in Corinthians
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

The Holy Spirit is declaring that those who are spiritual acknowledge that Paul is discussing the commandments of Our Lord. The Holy Spirit is likewise declaring that those who cannot acknowledge that Paul is writing about the commandments of the Lord are NOT spiritual.

Jesus was tempted by human desires but did not succumb or give in to them. Jesus is equated to the second Adam. Who gives us the power to transform our inner minds so that they are in agreement to the will of the Lord? Jesus also told us why he only spoke in parables, did he not?

"The Bible says by the mouths of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Here's an exercise for all you Paul lovers who believe that his is the definitive word on all things Christian: Read your Bibles OT and NT and find two other writers or scripture passages that support what Paul says. The only place is 2Peter and most intelligent Bible scholars believer that is a forgery, never written by Peter."

Stop thinking in the physical.

The key is here
“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER
    World - physical murder, killing someone
    Higher truth - "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him

Those in Jesus' days on Earth rejected spiritual truths in favor of the physical - the copies and shadows of the spiritual realities instead of the higher truths that the laws of Moses should have taught them. They wouldn't eat pig yet never learned to not listen to those who didn't "chew the cud"...meditate/regurgitate the Word.

J*e*w*s despise Paul for a reason. And this "anti-Paul" rhetoric stems directly from those who reject any higher spiritual truth. So when the Holy Spirit wrote these words

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

we'd best believe IT as Truth.

There is always someone who wants to argue for paul even though Paul's own words make a mockery of Jesus' teachings.

You already seem to quote man's words as words from GOD way too easily.

And away we go.

So in defense of Paul the Pharisee you jump back to David. Amazing!

If David instructed us to meditate on Moses ridiculous & insane laws then David didn't know the laws.

So which laws do you mean the 10 commandments or the laws permitting murder, slavery, infanticide, stonings, ethnic cleansing etc?

Are you really going to argue "mad moses' laws" are really from GOD?

ANYTHING THAT UNDERMINES THE OMNISCIENCE AND PURE LOVE OF GOD IS RUBBISH!

Why do you assume the Holy Spirit is saying anything to me in

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

This is Paul suffering from ego... It is pure self aggrandizement and nothing more. Yes, that's right, ego. Have you studied what GOD allegedly said about prophets?

Is the Holy Spirit saying to you - your comprehension skills are sadly lacking?

Your defense of Paul is noble but amazingly naive! Sadly, too much Bible babble and not enough logic I am afraid.

Gee everyone has sinned? Really?

So all the evidence of Paul's oppression of women, 50% of the population, you chose to ignore? Are you questioning my spirituality for pointing out the truth?

Remember - Do not judge - You are not entitled...

Lastly on the temptation of Jesus.

Did Jesus know he was the Son of GOD before his Baptism? Answer YES!

Did Jesus here GOD say Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Answer Yes!

So how could Jesus be tempted by such a lowly being, (compare to Jesus), as Satan?

Why would Jesus want to own the Kingdoms of the world when he already knew he owns the entire Universe?

Matthew 4:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Come on think! There was no temptation... Jesus couldn't be tempted!

People need to think about what I showed about Paul. It should now be as clear as the nose on your face!

Please think!

And now to this load of rubbish.

Firstly, I am not Jewish! That is one area of thinking you can be relieved of.

If you truly believe the Holy Spirit wrote

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

then obviously you are stating that the Holy Spirit agrees with oppressing ALL WOMEN!

Good luck with that thinking. The fact that it would be unGODly to oppress women as Paul's teachings have doesn't seem to worry you either.

Do you really believe that all of the Bible is GOD's word?

Paul's own teachings condemn him on this issue, not anti-Paul rhetoric. Somehow you managed to place the cart before the horse. AMAZING!

You too obviously haven't studied Moses' laws to make the argument you are using.

Why do "self proclaiming" believers, undermine a "LOVING GOD", by believing, that GOD, would condone the atrocities Moses' laws allow?

Wakey! Wakey!

No!!!

You are still thinking naturally. The physical representation mirrors spiritual realities. It's facets of the three heavens. God made man and woman, which represent an earthly physical reflection of higher spiritual realities. As such, if you wish to believe that Paul is "oppressing women" this feeling is of your own thoughts - not of the Father. This is the difference - their are Christians who are content with the physical external religion which says do not an animal that doesn't chew the cud - and there are Christians who come to understand that that law represents a higher spiritual truth - not absorbing knowledge from those who do not meditate on the Word of God. Scripture and His Spirit within us testify that He upholds and defends the oppressed and helpless - the fatherless and the orphans. In which case, there is a reason why Paul wrote what he did. One look at the world today should clue you in as to the higher truth on the matter, but it appears that you still want to think of it as oppression.

Therefore you will never come to agreement with the Holy Spirit when it wrote what it did through Paul. He is discussing the Lord's commands throughout all of his letters, but those who don't strive to learn any higher understanding than the external requirements usually reject his writings. Yet they believe Jesus' quoted words when He said that even lust for another is classified as adultery and that hating your brother was tantamount to murder. And Paul makes it very clear when it his opinion on a matter or a revelation from the Spirit.

Absolutely I believe that all of the Bible is from God. My God is loving, good, just, despises evil and is Judge of everything in Heaven and in Earth. The atrocities that occurred in scripture have everything to do with not following the law of Moses and with not understanding the truths contained within said laws. I don't purport to understand but a tiny fraction, but I welcome the truth when revealed to me.

Quote
"Lastly on the temptation of Jesus.

Did Jesus know he was the Son of GOD before his Baptism? Answer YES!

Did Jesus here GOD say Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Answer Yes!

So how could Jesus be tempted by such a lowly being, (compare to Jesus), as Satan?

Why would Jesus want to own the Kingdoms of the world when he already knew he owns the entire Universe?

Matthew 4:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Come on think! There was no temptation... Jesus couldn't be tempted!"
UNQUOTE

Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. The Bible is written in those parables. You reject Him therefore you will not understand. It couldn't be any more clear that someone who cannot even understand the above is certainly not being brought into enlightenment regarding the writings of Paul.

The point shown by all this back and forth is that there always seems to be a lot explanation and rationalization called for whenever we discuss Paul's many epistles.

Some cling tenaciously to the idea because these writings have been included in the bible, God's plan is for us to view them as instructions written as if by His own hand even though the Bible itself offers no good reason we should believe that and in point of fact makes it clear we should be quite wary ever of doing so.

Others will go so far as to claim Paul's words call for the 'spiritual' discernment to know the difference between when Paul is offering his own opinion vs. when the Holy Spirit is speaking directly through him. Not only is that a convoluted approach but it flat out ignores all the tribulation that has resulted over several hundred years of taking Paul's word at face value, putting aside those that would twist even further the meanings for their own selfish gain. The subjugation of woman and the notion that we can best serve God by remaining unmarried are just two prime examples of Paul's skewed attitude that have been firmly incorporated into religious hierarchy.

Truth be told the epistles of Paul are just that, Paul's letters. We really only have Paul's word for it that he is a true Apostle and received his Gospel directly from the post resurrected spirit of Jesus. Jesus instructions in such a case are clear: we are to test that spirit and we shall know them by their fruits, not just blindly accept all they have to say as God given truth.

We've had roughly two thousand years of the Gospel according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John being commingled with Paul's as if they all individually carried the same weight. Given the overall history of the Church even the simplest mind has to admit there's been a whole heap of fermentation all along.

Do you love Paul? Fine, then stop believing he is God's #1 spokesperson and try with all your might to follow Jesus teachings. Rebuke every bit of evil within yourself before showing how 'Holy' you are by publicly rebuking the evil in others.

The jury is still out on Paul as far as I am concerned. He after all was not an apostle to the Jews but to the Gentiles.

Let's say we have other world's...would they not need apostles of their own skin...scales, membrane, circuitry etc?

Paul never met Jesus as a follower. He had to rebuild the concept of "Jesus" from the old testament the same source that Jesus used to rebuild his self concept of his own divinity!

Pauls world view however seems to be that of a "Don't rock the boat" Roman rather than a coming utopia prophet (Which is kinda the world view of Jesus!)

Was Paul on the pay of Rome...If he was not initially, I'm absolutely sure he was offered, and it's funny he didn't mention that he was approached on the road to Damascus by a Roman agent that recruited him for Roman Intelligence.

Who else could confirm Jesus appeared to him? Certainly no Christian because he was murdering their kind. The scales falling away from his eyes suggests an injury from a beam weapon...sorry that's another subject!

Okay imagine this, a hand held sheet laser wipes him and his donkey out into a quivering heap of flash burn. Then thanks to HARP a voice speaks in his mind and a glowing orb image is projected into his brain and it speaks to him in his own tongue; Saul Saul welcome to the NWO! Hahahahaha....! The evil laugh is mine!

Of course Paul is an apostle, and women can't be trusted to teach, and slavery is OK, and....Church is on Sundays competing with hockey and football, and and and....

I think I am going to quit before my brain pops!

Wow!

I'm afraid you do not worship GOD. You worship a dusty old book and the misinterpretations of man.

Mosaic law is Sharia law - Congratulations I am revealing the truth to you.

It is you that fail to differentiate between GOD and man's teachings, and why? - Because you can't analyse what is being said.

Under your logic GOD by approving Mosaic law, the atrocities of Moses and the oppression of women by Paul is not loving but cruel and heartless. GOD would never approve such things!

I defend GOD against these insults.

See what your thinking achieves - You hold your head high, claiming to be Christian, whilst continuing with the undermining of GOD's omniscience and love, whilst I defend GOD totally.

See what believing a flawed book and the teaching of men does.

You were warned

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It has made you an underminer of GOD's greatness - but worse - one who thinks he can justify his terrible position because some dusty old book and the writings of demonstrably flawed men as righteous and from GOD.

AMAZING!

Do you worship the Bible and man or GOD?