So, You Think Jesus Can't Save You? Not Good Enough For Him?

Ok, well we believe very differently. Peace.




Well, at least consider it a possibility.




I already have, I was a new ager before I came back to Jesus Christ!

:hug9342432:


The new ager label has a horrible stigma of ignorance to it and it is not what I consider myself to be. I have a collection of beliefs that seem most probable to me, there is no label for it. The idea of one mind is shared by many scientists who have studied and tried to understand quantum theory. There does appear to be a connection between each of our minds and consciousness itself appears to be non-local.

Bingo.

Think Thor cant save you?

Book of Thor Page 17 : I can totally save all of you

there is the proof!!!

Let me ask, is repentence based out of fear of something or desire for something really true repentence? For repentence to be sincere and have integrity behind it - doesn't it need to originate from a person's heart, his/her own conscience, and in the absence of the imagined consequences for not doing so or any imagined reward for doing so? I mean if someone threatened you with unspeakable consequences for not being sorry about something you've done - I am pretty sure you would find a way to convince yourself that you're sorry. Not because you were earnestly and truly sorry to begin with, but because of your desire to avoid the threatened consequences for not feeling sorry.

So when people (not suggesting you here) instruct/order others to repent in order to be 'saved' or secure their place in 'heaven' - they are really undermining the true essence of repentence becaue it is not something that another can intstruct nor convince you to do and not something that can be done in the light of trying to obtain a reward or avoid a punishment. Wouldn't 'God' see right through your heart and know if you were only repenting for self-serving reasons? (to get to 'heaven' or avoid 'hell'). Is this what 'God' would want? Repentence that is insincere and lacks integrity behind it?



The concern here is that the greek language of the New Testament utilized words/terms that do not describe nor represent the conceptualizations of 'eternal hell' that many commonly accept today. The greek terms 'gehenna' and 'sheol' do not speak of a place of 'eternal torment' - yet these words were translated to 'hell' in modernized versions of the bible? Can anyone guess why this was done? Was it done in error, or was it intentional? How has this significant issue and inconsistency in translations influenced individuals' perception of 'God' subsequently?

More on this:

[link to www.tentmaker.org]
- If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children

-If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity

-If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

-If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"


Somewhere along the lines the pagan concept of 'eternal torment/hell' infiltrated mainstream christianity and changed how the original scriptures were commonly interpretted and understood by early christians as well as by the most influential early church fathers who taught the concept of 'universal restoration' for several centuries. Subsequently this 'eternal hell' doctrine undermines the will of Christ/God and violates/contradicts scripture in many places.

So if it can be established that the concept of 'eternal hell' was not found in the Old Testament, and the New Testament had not yet been created at the time that Christ was preaching to the disciples and his followers, the question needs to be asked, exactly what is he 'saving' us from? It can't be 'eternal hell' because this concept did not exist in the OT and even the greek language of the NT does not have the terminology to describe the concept of 'eternal' as we have come to know it. The greek terms describe something that would last an 'age' or a specific period of time.

[link to www.christianspiritualism.org]
Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is purificatory; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is consonant with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms.


Also, Christ tells Nicodemus he must be 'born again' to see the Kingdom of 'God', but Christ was still alive when these instructions were given. So how could the concept of being 'born again' revolve around Christ's 'death' or 'sacrifice' if this had not yet taken place at the time these instructions were given and Christ made no mention of this stipulation to Nicodemus who surely could not have understood 'born again' to mean this if Christ was still alive? If being born again to see the Kingdom of 'God' revolved around Christ's 'death' and 'sacrifice', then Christ would have informed Nicodemus to wait until he died and then believe in him and his sacrifice to be 'saved', right?

So if we want to see the kingdom of 'God', don't we need to figure out exactly what Christ meant when he was still alive and instructed Nicodemus that he must be 'born again'. He said 'spirit gives birth to spirit'. It sounds like he is speaking of a spiritual re-birth (awakening). I wonder if his moral teachings/precepts were in fact the instructions to bring about this process/experience.

"Ask not what your Savior can do for you, but what you can do for your Savior."

"So if we want to see the kingdom of 'God', don't we need to figure out exactly what Christ meant when he was still alive and instructed Nicodemus that he must be 'born again'. He said 'spirit gives birth to spirit'."


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See Romans Chp 8: 9----16



You must be born of the Spirit.......indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

This takes place immediately when a person turns their life over to Christ.

I have a question, about the souls of people born after Jesus, but who died before Missionaries could speak to them.

Like Eskimos in 6th Century Canada, for example, or 15th Century Japanese.

Do they get damned for eternity too?

That is a good question and to my knowledge is not addressed in Scripture.

My own opinion however is that God will in one way or another provide the Gospel message to them.

What about those who died before hearing the Gospel?
[link to www.biblequery.org]

"Only One Way:
Imagine, before Jesus' terrible torture and crucifixion, Jesus praying in the Garden in Gethsemane saying "Father,
if it be possible, let this cup pass from me", and God the Father saying, "Your dying on the cross is not needed to
take away people's sins, we're just going through all this for fun." Jesus' death did not provide an "alternative way"
to go to Heaven. Jesus is the one and only way."

No, jesus, could you save my wife from her drinking, and drug abuse!

yep or they just needed a motivation.... just saying :)

Yes, repentance needs to be sincere and come from the heart. God knows everything about a man, even all of his thoughts.

I know about the whole sheol argument because I believed that too for 7 years when I was a JW.

I've studied alot, including all of the OT and NT Apocrypha, and there is just too much evidence for me not to believe in it.

Regardless, believing in hell is not a salvation issue, but the fact that Jesus spoke more about he then He did about heaven is enough evidence for me that it really does exist.

Being "born again means to die on the cross with Christ (symbolically)and born anew in the spirit, the Holy Spirit which makes a new man. This is dying to self and living by the spirit. This is also a complex topic, which takes more then one paragraph to explain fully.

Hmm 'immediately'? I would imagine that turning one's life over to Christ must entail integrating & internalizing his moral teachings/instructions - truly exemplifying them and living by them. That it not something that can take place 'immediately' as it is necessarily a challenging task, but something that would need to transpire over time and through focused intention.

"Merely to call Jesus "Lord" does not constitute true discipleship, but to weave his words into the fabric of one's life, to put into execution his divine and self-perfecting precepts, this and this only, constitutes discipleship." - James Allen

:greenkarma:








I concur. So to 'live by the spirit' isn't it necessary that we place a strong emphasis on Christ's instructions not to judge & condemn others, to forgive others, and to love our neighbors & enemies? It seems the importance of these instructions often gets overlooked in favor of stated 'beliefs' - whereas all of these instructions require conscious practice (action) on the part of the individual.

That's good to know. Then they can be damned to eternity for not following Jesus anyway.

Glad we agree!

Well.....in my particular case......it had to do with God showing up at my home. My wife showed me some end time Scripture........and God convicted me in a very strong manner.....and showed me that I was lost.


My wife helped me to pray......and I turned my life over to Christ.

A great burden was immediately lifted.......and I then felt something new within me.

And His Spirit has been there within me ever since......providing great peace and comfort.

That was 25 years ago.

And although there is nothing good about me.......there is something very good within me......namely His Spirit which he put there on that day.

As far as people who never heard of Jesus, I believe they are judged based on what they know and how they lived their lives. But, this is just my personable opinion, and I could be wrong.

Everyone is born with a conscience, which comes from God. Some choose to listen to their conscience, and some ignore it. See this thread here for more on that.

Thread: Your Conscience, What is it?

and this one here about the heart of a man and his intent

Thread: The Heart of a Man & Intent

Remember that the bible is only a very basic guide book for life. It does not include an answer to every possible question that a human has. If it did, it would be so huge that a person couldn't lift it and it would have taken forever to write and compile.

So, it's a basic book for living, and it contains the information that we need to know, but not all the information that we might want to know.

This touches my heart greatly and I know of what you speak.
Praise be to Him forever!!!

The LORD is my strength and my
defense; He has become my
salvation. He is my God, and I will
praise Him, my father’s God, and I
will exalt Him. Exodus 15:2

Yes, absolutely! Please see this thread here for more information on that.

Thread: Faith Without Works is Dead!

Well.....there was one point in time that God wanted to completely destroy His entire Creation. Doesn't He have the right to do so?



Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

God seems pretty fickle. Like Laurence Olivier in the original Clash of the Titans. Also, how did Noah manage the inbreeding between brother and sister offspring of the couples he put on the ship?

Hello :)

I am joyful that you have found inner peace.

Please don't consider this reply anything other than genuine questions:

You say "God showed up at your home" - isn't God everywhere, every time, doesn't the spirit of God permeate the entirety of creation?

You can pin-point a day and time when his spirit entered you "His Spirit which he put there on that day" - may I ask what spirit was in you prior to that moment? where did it come from? who created it? where did it go?

Also, consider if other people have the same experience as you, but unfortunately, "fall back" (I term I've heard from ex-christians) i.e. they are no longer christians, then what happens to "His Spirit"? where does it go? and what spirit comes into the body when "His Spirit" has gone?

It is my understanding that God is All That Is - meaning, that's all there is - there isn't a little room somewhere in the corner of the universe tucked away out of sight with a label on the door that says "All that isn't" for by it's very definition, it isn't, and doesn't exist. I understand your definitions regarding God and the devil and your wish to separate the two, but in knowing that God, which IS spirit, IS ALL THERE IS - how could there possibly be any "other" spirit that filled you before you say he filled you with his spirit?

IMO, is it not possible that Spirit (God), the All That Is (and there is nothing else) is the only spirit, and that it's a part of that spirit that animates your physical flesh upon birth and that the "something new that you felt inside you, providing peace and comfort" was an expanded awareness on your part of what was ALREADY there?

OH GOLLY LOOK BATMAN! Drug addicts that have met an imaginary magic man! Good golly gosh better convert to christianity HUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUHUH! Drug addicts also see pink elephants floating in the sky it doesn't make them real you fucking retard.

"God seems pretty fickle."


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This is actually by its very nature......rebellion against God......whereby a person criticizes or complains about the One who created him.

I was in a state of rebellion against God for approx. 20 years.....without even being much aware of it.

Thankfully He brought me to me senses......and I made peace with God.......back in 1988.....September.

Question for you, are you a believer yet?

I notice a difference in you.

812:


You have a lot of questions......but I have to leave the house for awhile.


Paul to other Christians:


"The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rm 8: 16)

You know reading your thread gives me the creeps like some weird cult.

Oh wait, Christianity is a weird cult.