What Would Jesus Do?

If He's supposedly gonna [send/allow] billions of human beings to burn in literal fire endlessly, we can probably toss out this question, because all bets are off

;)

I highly doubt you are versed in the things you attack.

I can't get the video link to work.

Anyway, it's a youtube video featuring topless male dancers performing at the Vatican.

Wrong, those people choose to not believe in Jesus. Or they somehow believe there is no God. But Romans 1:20-32 says they know better.

History lesson:

During the first several centuries of Christianity, many localized sects formed in retaliation against it.


Mohammed was a the founder of one such group. He would visit a cave and fall to the ground in seizures, often foaming at the mouth like a rabid animal.

During these episodes, he claimed to have visions of the angel Gabriel. He would "dictate" messages allegedly recieved from the apparitions, and would then preach to the members of his tribe.

Oh yeah -- the Arabian Peninsula at the time was full of tribes. Each tribe had its own deity.

The tribe Mohammed came from worshipped a god they called 'Allah.'

Islam was started by a guy who mixed Christian ideas (his aunt was an apostate Christian) with his local pagan god.

Last Edited by Here_For_Donuts on 03/19/2013 03:10 PM

He had seizures because he had temporal lobe epilepsy, not to mention syphilus. Islam was started by the vatican to fight the Jews.

One more thing:

Your views of hell are based on the western Roman Catholic/Protestant bastardization of Christian theology and legalistic philosophy.

The true, historical church is the Orthodox church.

What has the Orthodox church taught CONSISTENTLY FOR 2,000 years? (And consistency is they key word here -- the western church [aka Roman Catholic] became isolated from the rest of Christianity after the western half of the Roman empire fell in the sixth century. For the next few centuries, the only unifying force in the west was the Apostolic See of Rome/the Papacy. [The East has several Apostolic Sees.] This singular commonality in westerners' lives, coupled with the isolation and the fact that Rome was the most important See in western Europe, led to the idea of Roman/papal infallibility. By the time they came back into contact with the Eastern church again, the East was like, "what happened to you guys?")

The TRUE Christian teaching concerning hell can be found here:

[link to aggreen.net]

Last Edited by Here_For_Donuts on 03/19/2013 03:25 PM

Ain't ya got no faith?

No, they really aren't :)

Right, people deliberately *choose* to be blind - God did the best He could, but it wasn't enough to steer defective specks from their fate. Least He tried.

here is a great exegetical look at hell according to scripture, your article was seriously lacking. worth a look.


A Concise Look at the Nature and Duration of Hell
[link to www.christiandefense.org]

Let's examine this together. . .

<< 1. The biblical authors used many terms to describe the final abode of unregenerate, e.g., “hell,” “Hades,” “the lake of fire,” “black darkness,” “eternal punishment,” “eternal flame/fire,” “eternal destruction” (cf. Matt. 18:8; 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Jude 7, 13; etc.). >>

Scripture is also packed with symbolism, using illustrative terms to describe things which are not to be taken literal. Consider the biblical definition of "destruction":
Deuteronomy 4 warns the Israelites that they'll be destroyed when they adopt the ways of the heathen and serve idols. This "destruction" of the children of Israel is defined there as being scattered among the nations to serve more idols, and includes the provision that when they finally seek God, they'll find Him, because God is merciful and will not(?) destroy them. We can see here that "destruction" is not absolutely an annihilation in which persons cease to exist, yes? In this case, it's referring to earthly difficulties. People use the term "destroy" in the same exact allegorical manner today, usually when talking about merely defeating someone or "putting them in their place". Nevertheless, we've been brainwashed via Religion's fossilized mindset that "destruction" unquestionably equals the disastrous and eternal ruin of one's soul with no remedy or recourse whatsoever.


<< 2. Matthew 25:46 reads: “And these will go away into eternal [aionion] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionion] life.” The term “punishment” is from the Greek word, kolasin, which *recognized* lexicographers define (in first cent. Koine Greek) as “punishment”/”chastisement” (e.g., Thayer, BDAG, et al). >>

Neither aionian nor aionios mean "eternal" or "endless". They mean "of the age" or "during the age", based on the noun aion (meaning "age").


<< 3. Revelation 20:10 reads: “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” The word “tormented” is from the Greek word basanizo, which is defined by Thayer as “being vexed with grievous pains.” Basanizo is also used in Luke 16:23 and, as discussed below, Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. In contrast to the doctrine of Annihilationism, logically one must be awake or conscious to actually experience or (as these texts above plainly indicate) receive “punishment” and “torment” (i.e., being “vexed with grievous pains”). Annihilationism teaches that when the wicked die they are totally destroyed ceasing to exist—however, a person that does not exist cannot be punished or feel anything such as torment.>>

In contrast, this same exact word basanizo appears in the gospels a couple of times, but is translated differently than in Relevation. . .

Matthew 14: But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

Mark 6: And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

Toiling and tossing is the nature of the "torment" they underwent on an actual lake. Struggling to row against the current is no fun, but does it mandate being "vexed with grievous pains"? Perhaps this provides a little insight on the nature of the "torment" experienced in the Lake of Fire. Or not. I dunno.


<< However, just because the root (aion) of the term aionios means “age” it does not mean that every time the term is used it indicates temporality. For example, Paul uses aionios to describe God’s eternal nature: “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal [aionion] dominion! Amen” (1 Tim. 6:16). It would be heresy to translate aionion here in a temporal sense making God’s dominion temporary—for His sovereignty is everlasting. >>

Well, no - it's not heresy if that's what's in the text. You can always count on hired scholars to cry "heresy" on anything scriptural that doesn't correlate with established religious doctrine. Back in the day, Pharisees were outraged at the sight of Jesus dining with sinners, while today they're indignant at the notion that He isn't going to roast them alive.


<< Below are brief excerpts taken from one of the most utilized and scholarly lexicons, Walter Bauer’s, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (BDAG), which provides a most comprehensive analysis of aionios regarding the “everlasting” duration of both life and damnation (hell): “aion formulaically=eternal [Rev.] 14:11; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5. . . . aionios “without beginning or end; of God (Gen 21:33; Is 26:4). . . . Very often of God’s judgment [Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; Mt 18:8; 25:46; Mk 3:29; 2 Co 6:7; 2 Th 1:9; Jd 7]. . . . pert. to a period of unending duration, without end. . . .” (32-33). Therefore, besides the passages that clearly (from the context) denote a temporary significance (e.g., Rom. 16:25), the lexical support (e.g., Thayer; Louw and Nida; Liddell and Scott; BDAG, et al) for aionios as denoting eternal, endless duration is conclusive. >>

Likewise, Strong's Concordance defines aionios as follows:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Ironically, though, the first chapter of Titus mentions the "hope of (aionios) life which God promised before the (aionios) began (chronos)".
This is quite a contradiction.

And in Philemon, Paul asks him to take in a disiple named Onesimus, who has departed from Paul for a season "that thou may receive him forever (aionios)".
You suppose if we went to Phil's house, Onesimus is still sitting there studying?

Jude mentions Sodom and Gomorrha being made an example of, suffering aionios fire. Oddly, those "eternal fires" have ceased burning. That's not very endless.


<< Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever [aionas ton aionon, lit., “ages of the ages”]; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” The double usage of the pluralized aionios (“ages”) is used by the author to accentuate the never-ending torment. >>

Highly interesting that a finite duration x2 (or even squared) = endless infinity. What kind of math is that?


<< Also, as with 14:11, the phrase “day and night” is juxtaposed with “forever and ever” stressing the fact that the “torment” is perpetual, never-ending for the objects of God wrath. >>

I'm sorry, but I can't be all that impressed with a God who tells me and you to not let the sun go down on our wrath, while He supposedly harbors *endless* wrath for anyone. Especially when He also goes around saying things like "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". That would make Him a cosmic hypocrite. Fortunately, it's not so.


<< To distinctly express the everlasting suffering for the unregenerate, the biblical authors used the phrase “unquenchable fire” (Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17; and Mark 9:43). The word translated “unquenchable” is from the Greek word asbestos. According to recognized lexicons, the term carries the meaning of “unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned” (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon); “inextinguishable” (BDAG); “pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out” (Louw and Nida); “unquenchable, inextinguishable” (Liddell and Scott).

The evidence for the never-ending nature of hell is undeniable. >>

Here's a list of things which are not literally fire, but which scripture *describes* as fire:

"Our God is a consuming fire" - Hebrews 12 (an echo of Deuteronomy 4:24)

"Is not My word like fire?" - Jeremiah 23

He makes "His ministers a flame of fire" - Hebrews 1 (also Psalm 104)

fiery trials = sharing in the sufferings of Christ - 1 Peter 4

Israel's captivity in Egypt = "an iron furnace" - Deuteronomy 4:20

A "fiery law" proceeded from God's right hand - Deuteronomy 33

Furthermore, in Isaiah 42, God says He set Israel "on fire", and they didn't even realize it. How can this be explained if the fire is literal?!


<< The Gospel is, indeed, good news, but only because of the bad news >>

Here we have the crux of the issue: if you take away religionists' blazing abyss, they no longer see any point to the gospel. Obviously, these folks are no better off than they were before coming to Christ, because apparently all they're getting out of it is a reprieve from the mythical cosmic barbecue. Never mind that the scriptural definition of eternal life is knowing God in Christ (John 17:3) and says nothing about ending up someplace.


See, self-righteous religious people have no problem with the "wicked" being tortured endlessly, because they haven't seen their own insides to comprehend that *none* of us deserve any better. They're just glad it's not them heading for hell - which is, by the way, a punishment which no decent human being would wish upon another for any reason. Surely we fallen schmucks are not more merciful than the Lamb, are we? Hebrews calls Him the express image (charakter) of God, so we can pretty much learn what God is like by examining Christ as depicted in the gospels. He befriended outcasts and He criticized the proud religionists, being the scribes and Pharisees. He was offended at the hardness of their hearts, specifically their prioritization of religious ritual over compassion for their fellow man.

In Exodus 21, God gives the Israelites the famous eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-tooth decree, mandating that any sentence must match the crime committed, so as to prevent going overboard with punishment. It also demands burn for burn in verse 25. Biblically, in order to "earn" for oneself an afterlife of endless burning, you would have to burn people endlessly here during your life on earth. Obviously, such a thing is not even possible. Per God's own Law, your precious eternal hellfire is *unlawful*.

any righteousness that i might have is a imputed righteousness, and Thank God is not up to me and my insides but thanks to the finished work at the cross by the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus said in john 8:24 the unless you believe that I AM you will perish in your sins. . [link to christiandefense.org]