UKRAINE/RUSSIA NEWS: Russian military drills begin near Ukraine day after militants announce 100k strong mobalisation!!!p.7387

[link to en.itar-tass.com]

Ukraine won't give $1 billion dollars for Russian gas unless Russia loans them $14 billion

In the long run Russia and China have the same imperialistic goals as the USA, the only difference is the way in which they plan to achieve those goals !

I dunno about you guys but if these are my only 3 options, I'm willing to take American imperialism any day over Russia or China !

At least with America at the helm I have Breaking Bad on TV and McDonald's at the corner !

This wasn't some random ban on imports, it was politically motivated and was part of a wider regional game of bans:

[link to www.ft.com]



So we have one side "confessing" of meddling. When is a Russian official going to publicly confess about the money Russia spent to influence beliefs and perceptions inside Ukraine? Maybe to stoke Russian nationalism among the Russian ethnics? Or to finance pro-Russian NGOs? Or buy the loyalties of people in the army and secret services? Yeah, never. But not because it didn't happen.



True, the EU raised its rhetoric a bit after the anti-democratic protest laws were adopted:
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Yanukovych tried to crack down on the protesters, but the authorities abandoned him. And he fled. The interim leadership then set out to organize elections in May. You can call it a coup, others call it a revolution. Whatever it was, it did not mean another country could legally walk in and annex a chunk of Ukraine without that meaning breaking international law. There have been many coups/revolutions all over the world in the past 60 years but how many subsequent annexations?



A government can resign when faced with massive popular protests. And either a new government is formed or elections are held. Same for a president. Or it can be toppled in parliament. Maybe those EU officials were referring to this, because I really doubt they were calling for the violent toppling of the government. They always talked about political solutions, not mob/violence solutions.



Ukraine has moved on without him. He was left with no allies in Ukraine. He can cry as much as he likes but why didn't the authorities enforce his view of things? After the May 25 elections he is officially history.

Fact of the matter is, and many other matters, Russia has said they will deal only with a legitimately elected government.

i respectfully disagree that this current gooberment is a reflection of the people. maybe the stupid and the dead since they where the majority of voters in 08 and 12 but not everyone.

if that works ima tryin it with my mortgage

Sad but true

Somewhere back a few hundred pages ago, I stated that this war is going to be fought economically.

I still stand by that statement.

is this still going on??

and that you are correct about stating. The stocks tanked the weekend all this began

If I'm not mistaken the S&P was at an all time high?

"Interview with rabbi Abraham Finkelstein"




[link to www.youtube.com]

Yeah, we tried that in 1941 too...

interesting that... '41 -> '14...

Sorry if you misunderstood - I meant the US Military Industrial Complex - not the people.

You are correct, some of my best friends are Americans and by the way they share my opinion. I love America and Americans, again apologies if it came across the wrong way - there's huge difference between that and the Military. And even the individual guys serving I've met very amazing guys/women too. I hope you get what I'm saying now.

"This is fargin war you iceholes" (from a movie for the one's who know it)


I just came back and read the headline wrong - US threatens Russia with Sanctions over "Pedophilia"Busting Deal





Seriously though, PETRODOLLAR! Watch it, that's gonna hurt the markets. It's weekend, lets see Monday. No wonder the language is so harsh. And it's comical because they're trying to make up other stories and nothing sticks. We're watching on GLP at least and know which ball to keep our eyes on.

I said that too, actually "economically&financially" - probably on page 200

So, where's the "invasion"?

The brainwashed and dumbed-down who volunteer to be in USA's mercenary army, because it pays better than the other job they are competent to do, cart wrangler at Walmart, are the problem--without those war-whores Obama couldn't threaten, bully, bomb, drone, invade and occupy any country whose policy-makers can't be bribed to do what the US corporate interests want--without those idiots who will greedily do anything they are told, including killing milllions of innocent people, the US military-backed international resource theft and rape could not happen--so blame the greedy grunts.
Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?

you're ignorant, why do you keep talking about things you obviously have no clue about. How about you go read some international law about the creation of states and see for yourself if it was illegal.

Sorry I don't have FT subscription. But having read numerous FT articles, I predict it says: "Russia bad bad bad bad bad bad bad", followed by "Putin evil evil evil evil". That sum it up?

As a general matter, I would tend to agree as relations between parties become more strained, one side or another is not inclined to be as lenient as in the past.

But whether politically motivated or not, it is not "economic coercion". If you like paying for news/information and keep this discussion going, I think this law review piece would be useful ( [link to heinonline.org] ), we can read it together :).

The real economic coercion going on in the world is pretty much centered around the US and its "sanctions" regime, currently for North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Syria, etc. As well as Israel in the Gaza Strip.


If Russia supports an armed insurrection against a democratically-elected government, you can make your arguments, and I would agree it is unlawful meddling (but would not listen to any bloviating hypocrites condemning it). In the meantime, you are blowing smoke.


I was speaking of December. See e.g. [link to www.euronews.com] ; [link to www.workers.org] ; [link to www.washingtontimes.com] ; [link to www.theguardian.com] .

And even if we include only January, why is it EU's business what laws Ukraine passes? Whether you like the laws or not, think they are "democratic" or not, interference is interference - international law makes no distinction between "interference which Polemarchos on GLP approves of", and other interference. There is no international law requiring "democracy" or compliance with whatever the unelected bureaucrats running the US State Department decide on any given day for any given country is "consistent with democratic principles".

By the way these "anti-democratic" laws are quite similar to many laws in the books of the US and other "democratic" countries. Ukraine was seriously facing a crisis at the time and the government wanted the authority to stop violent protests and blockading of streets. I don't see what is "anti-democratic" about that.

In fact it was the violent overthrow of a democratic government and its replacement by an unpopular puppet appointed by a foreign unelected bureaucrat that was anti-democratic. But instead of sanctioning the coup leaders, the EU toasted and rewarded them. Talk about utter hypocrisy!

And the authorities abandoned Yanukovych after he was (IMO, most likely falsely but also reasonably credibly) accused of murdering 100 protesters and a violent mob had seized downtown Kiev. I also presume, knowing how politics works in Kiev, that a number of Party of Regions MPs were given some financial incentive to switch sides (it would not have taken many, as the pro- anti- Yanukovych sides were nearly balanced in Rada, and basically every MP in Rada, from whatever party, is corrupt).


They were supporting the protesters' demands that the government resign completely and that the people (designated by Nuland, not by the Ukrainian people - nobody in Maidan liked Yatsenyuk, that's for sure! Klitschko was more popular but even he people did not want - bottom line is nobody was protesting for any of the "opposition leaders", everyone was protesting against Yanukovych) take power. What are you talking about? And they fully supported, encouraged, etc. the protesters seizing downtown Kiev, using violence against police, etc.

The government in fact never did resign, but was overthrown. Largely due to some "mysterious snipers" ....

Again, the important fact you keep overlooking is when Yanukovych tried just to remove the blockades and put an end to the seizure of downtown Kiev, he was threatened, not only himself personally but his "inner circle" and Ukraine, with sanctions.


None of which is relevant. Until May 25 he is the constitutional president (and one might even argue about that, as he did not agree to elections in May but rather in December).

Well, I am done with this debate actually, you can have the last word. Cheers!

This never ending thread makes it impossible to follow the Fascist takeover of Ukraine. I guess that's the point though.

Hey, they are out-sourcing those brainwashed dumbed-down jobs to robots. They will be even more useful for killing Americans, now that the neo-cons have given the US government the power to kill any US citizen they want without evidence or trial.

Honestly I think these guys are temporary. They're there to sign off on EU and IMF and go anti-Russian, they are the threat which keeps them in power til everything is signed off and taken care of.

Wait a few months, I doubt elections happen in May, the people will rise up again when they realize they got stiffed.

ReasonRupe Poll: 58 Percent of Americans Want the US to Stay Out of Ukraine

[ LESS THAN 50% ]

"As tensions rise between Ukraine and Russia, America’s foreign policy hawks argue the US needs to do more. However, Reason-Rupe finds war-weary Americans are reluctant to get involved in yet another conflict abroad.

...

"[W]hen asked what they’d like to do regarding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, 58 percent would prefer the US stay out of it completely. Thirty-one percent would prefer the US continue imposing economic sanctions and only 8 percent want the US to send troops.

"If Russia attempts to invade additional parts of Ukraine, Americans continue to overwhelmingly oppose the US sending troops, with 76 percent opposed and 20 percent in favor, and even oppose sending military aid and weapons to Ukraine, with 62 percent opposed and 33 percent in favor ...."

[link to reason.com]

Well if history is any indication, what the American people want doesn't matter one bit ... but it's useful information in context of the "Americans are great" discussion ....

Last Edited by Sun_dancer on 04/04/2014 07:23 PM

i don't think 58 percent of Americans even know what Ukraine is

And think about this:

Assume you are Putin.

Right now the history books show that the USA conquered the Soviet Union without firing a shot, economically.

And now you, Putin, are in a prime position to determine
what the future history books show. You are a proud Russian
who feels disgust for a conquerer that has become arrogant and pathetic. You now have a moment in time to turn the tables and leave future history with how Russia came back to defeat the USA. You can do it economically and at least the history books could say that. Unfortunately there are some serious psychopaths in the US government (prime example McCain) who will turn this moment of American desperation into a hot, and likely nuclear war.

Putin Warned of Fascism in Ukraine, But a Look Across Europe Suggests He’s to Blame

A visit to Kiev’s Jewish institutions reveals Jews there are less concerned about their neighbors at home than the bully next door

[link to www.tabletmag.com]

In my opinion it's the fall of Empire we are witnessing. There seems to be a force pushing the USA into this collision and vice versa in Russia. The only chance to let 2 nuclear superpowers destroy each other to make way for them and safe themselves...

McCain and all those others who benefit from crisis and wars are just useful tools!

Whoops

Thread: $6 BILLION dollars worth of contracts 'misplaced' by State Department.