Christians: a checklist of laws, or simply love?

Agreed 100%



Because we're not to be unlawful (Greek anomia in the passage where He says "depart from me you who work iniquity".)

The catch is that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7). For example, we're not to bother with literal male circumcision, because He's ultimately calling for a circumcision of the *heart*.
Once we learn to read the Torah through New Covenant eyes, it will start to make sense. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life = the Law solely taken literally at face value with a carnal mind is not going do much for us.

Further, it's not about performing-the-Law-so-that-we'll-be-saved. . .it's a simple matter of obedience. Being In Christ, died & raised in Him as a new creature, why do we have a problem doing what He says? Surely you don't object if He tells you "pay for your neighbor's lunch" or "drive a different route today" or whatever He guides us with, right?

The Law is prophetic. If we'll at least come to grips with the notions of studying it, we might be surprised at the progress we make.

Never is any Christian told to obey the laws of Moses, for any reason. As it says in Hebrews 7, which a change of priesthood comes a change of law; you can't have a new priesthood and still keep even part of the law belonging to an old priesthood. I also mentioned Galatians and the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15, where Peter, Paul, and James all agreed that Gentiles were not to be put under the laws of Moses, for any reason. Nothing at all is said in the entire NT about the need to obey those laws. So even if it's not for the purpose of being saved, we still are not bound to the laws associated with the Levitical priesthood.

I just got lectured or blasted by an evangelist.

what they are really doing is saving themselves and just using you for fuel.

if i'm going to get a lecture it will not be from someone who is married succesfully, 3 white kids, everything fucking perfect.

now if it was some guy single for his entire life, and 50s then i'l listen.

they are just blasting out how perfect they are and how they are going to heaven and how you are just a piece of shit.

As Jesus said, we can judge people by their "fruit" or behavior. Those who don't practice what they preach are wolves in sheep's clothing.

isn't there something in there about do not judge lest you be judged?
and love your enemy?
i see a whole lot of judgment, and hate for muslims from the christians here.
seems things have gone astray.

I understand where you're coming from, but consider: you're probably obeying at least half of them by *default*, just by knowing right from wrong. If you aren't murdering, or stealing, or idolatrous or adulterous etc., you're already obeying this legal list you're trying to refute.

Crying "legalism!" when posed with matters regarding the Law or with obedience thereto is short-sighted, as the entirety of our salvation is based upon legal process: "Justification" and "Redemption" are both legal terms, and anyone who has "received Jesus" has taken Him as their lawful Representative and Counsel, and are thus already submitted to court proceedings.

I'm all for Love - once it starts to sink in corporately, we'll really be getting somewhere. May not happen overnight, but part of the process likely involves recognizing its expression in the Law. For example, Jesus' statement

"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled"

takes on new meaning when we understand the legal intent beneath it, from Exodus 22:

"If fire breaks out and catches in thorns, so that stacked grain, standing grain, or the field is consumed, He Who kindled the fire shall surely make restitution."

By His own law, He's *bound* Himself to make restitution. If we'll think about considering maybe starting to possibly become familiar with the Law, we'll see a lot of stuff we never saw before.

Don't assume that everyone here claiming to be a Christian really is one. In fact, there are people doing role playing as Christians just to give real ones a bad name.

That said, there certainly are many claiming Christ who are filled with hatred. But at the same time, don't confuse hatred of ideas with hatred of people. Islam is truly an evil, violent, Satanic religious/political system.

Absolutely - unfortunately, this hateful stance is widespread, and serves as an example of comfy blind Laodiceans who have missed the whole point.

The catch in the "judge not" thing is that we're also told "with what measure you judge will be measured back to you", or "we'll be judged the same way we issued judgment". Based on that, a lot of us are absolutely begging for a serious wakeup call. What we reap will likely not be pretty, unless mitigated somehow by those with the burden to soften some of the impact.

Wait - this is Paula, isn't it? This discussion may not do much for either of us, as unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you and I see ever eye-to-eye on. No sweat, though.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law. Again all these fake christians misrepresent the bible. Matthew 5:17 says, "Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Jesus came to fulfill the prophesy of his coming that was spoken of in Isaiah.
Matthew 5:19. Whosever therefore shall break one of the least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (just like these fake Christians) but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Did Jesus keep the laws when he was here? Yes he did!! So if you want to be a christian, shouldn't you at least try and follow his example?

First of all, I'm not trying to refute anything but the same type of "Judaizing" Paul fought in his day. Of course many people, even unbelievers, meet the requirements of many of the 10 commandments without knowing or caring what they are. This hardly means Christians are to obey the laws because they're laws.

Secondly, it is in fact "legalism" to put Christians under those laws, as Paul plainly taught. If I refrain from sin because I love Jesus and want to please him, rather than because it's in a list, how is this not obedient to the law of love? All I'm saying is that no part of the Levitical system applies to either Christians or Gentiles; this is straight out of scripture, particularly Hebrews 7.

The entirety of our salvation is this: that Jesus did what no one else could do, fulfill the laws perfectly. That is why whoever belongs to Jesus has already met every requirement. So to keep trying to fulfill those laws is a slap in Jesus' face, because it makes him look like a failure.

I fully understand the legal issues; I'm no beginner at scripture study. And it is precisely because I understand them that I rejoice over the fact that Jesus took away any need for us to be held to Levitical laws.

Just love God and people, and don't worry about who is checking the list.

Have we met?

Of course Jesus didn't come to destroy the law. As he said himself, he came to fulfill it. And what is the result of a fulfilled law? It is no longer in effect. Check Hebrews 7 and Galatians 4.

In Mat., Jesus was speaking to Jews.

By the way:

No one is telling anyone to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, or any other such thing. To be free from the Levitical priesthood/law is to be a slave to the Melchizedek priesthood/law. And that law is, "Love God and love people." Simple, clear, and non-legalistic.

OK, I'm against Judaization, as well. There's zero point to genital mutilation, animal sacrifices, a magic building, special costumes, etc. Those mundane earthly things were mere pictures of real, spiritual things. As Colossians says, if we're now born again in Christ, co-heirs with Him, and dead to the world, why subject ourselves to tangible nonsense such as "touch not, taste not, handle not" etc.?

Exactly.

When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman, he told her that the time had come to "worship God neither here on this mountain nor in Jerusalem but in Spirit and truth". No more sacred buildings, pulpits, preachers, rituals, or checklists. Just Jesus.

Paul is speaking to Israelites in Galations and Hebrews too. Either you accept the whole book or none of it. You can't say I'm not going to accept what Jesus said in Matthew because he was speaking to jews!!!
Paul is an israelite speaking to other israelites that have been scattered.
Paul was keeping the laws also. Give me some biblical examples of the israelites not keeping the law. The heathen weren't keeping the laws, ever, and they are the ones teaching you don't have to keep the laws today!!

Are you saying that Israelites IN THE CHURCH were to practice Judaism anyway? Then why did Paul publicly rebuke Peter for doing exactly that, when he was pressured by Judaizers? If Paul was keeping the law, then how could he confront Peter for keeping the law?

Are you saying that nothing at all changed after the cross, and after Pentecost? That the church is just Israel 2.0?

Context is everything. You can't lift what Jesus said to JEWS UNDER LEVITICAL LAW with what he or his apostles said to CHRISTIANS, whether they were formerly Jews or Gentiles. Paul himself listed three distinct groups of people in 1 Cor. 11:16, "Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God".

If you ignore context you will reach all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Legalism: Doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons.

If you refrain from stealing only because it's in the 10 commandments, you're a legalist.

If you refrain from stealing because you love God and want to please him, you're not a legalist.

Love God and people, and you'll have no need for lists. If you think God will condemn me for loving people, just because I did it to please Him rather than because it's in a list, then you're very, very confused.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew Chapter 5

So Christ was a legalist?

Exactly.

John 6:28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

He came as one under the law in order to fulfill it. That is why whoever is in Christ has also fulfilled the law. Whoever still tries to fulfill the law is saying that Jesus didn't do enough.

Was Christ an antinomian when he said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"?

You've been told this already. What Jesus said to Jews under the law was for them, not for Christians. Context!

And again: Who is saying we should start stealing or murdering? You're burning a straw man, over and over.

So you go ahead and try to impress God with your checklist. I'm going to just love people.

You clearly don't understand the reason Christ was crucified. So we could have a way to atone of our sins. Since the temple was going to be destroyed, Christ became the spotless lamb of God. If you do not repent of your sins, you make Christs selfless sacrifice null and void.

You clearly don't understand the reason Christ was crucified: to redeem mankind from the dominion of Satan, to free Jews from the law they could not uphold, and to reconcile to God anyone who comes to Jesus in faith.

What part of "love God and people" means anything close to "don't repent of your sins"?