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Do rockets work in space?

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 69746263
Canada
08/20/2015 10:20 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
I nasa asked you to take a trip to space in their rocket, would you go?
Anonymous Coward
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08/20/2015 10:37 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Op, would you grant that if you fired a rail gun in space, the craft on which the rails are situated would be displaced in the opposite direction to the direction of the projectile.
Further, would you acknowledge that the faster and heavier the projectile, the more force translated into motion of the craft. Does this help you understand propulsion systems in space?
Anonymous Coward
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Spain
08/21/2015 03:13 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
I nasa asked you to take a trip to space in their rocket, would you go?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


I would not trust them with my pet hamster.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/21/2015 07:34 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Op, would you grant that if you fired a rail gun in space, the craft on which the rails are situated would be displaced in the opposite direction to the direction of the projectile.
Further, would you acknowledge that the faster and heavier the projectile, the more force translated into motion of the craft. Does this help you understand propulsion systems in space?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67928177


Source: U.S. Navy. The U.S. Navy is tapping the power of the Force to wage war. Its latest weapon is an electromagnetic railgun launcher. It uses a form of electromagnetic energy known as the Lorentz force to hurl a 23-pound projectile at speeds exceeding Mach 7.Apr 9, 2014

A railgun is not the same thing as a rocket. Im not sure if the Lorentz law follows Newton's third law either.

[link to physics.stackexchange.com]

[link to www.physicsforums.com (secure)]

One thing to do this would be to have a similar setup like this but also using a scale to determine if there is a reaction force pushing down. This what This propulsion system could be used on a space craft if a wire was fixed in between the magnets, the whole platform would lift up.

Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/21/2015 08:41 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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So basically you are saying that gas is fundamentally different than solid matter and liquids. Which is a complete nonsense.

Fundamentally all that we call "matter" consists of molecules. There are several levels beyond that, but it doesn't really, well, matter in this particular case.
Aside from other parameters that are different for different elements, there is a characteristic that is universal for all the matter there is: "internal energy" - or "temperature". Temperature is fundamentally the speed of each molecule's own movement. The rest differs from element to element and depends on how strong are the intermolecular forces: if the internal energy (i.e. molecular speed) is low enough, the solid matter forms (a crystal in some cases), if forces are enough to hold molecules together but not to stabilize them in one place - we see liquid. And if this forces are so low that they have almost no effect, we see gas. Oh, well, if the molecules are also electrically charged (i.e. ionized), we see plasma, that have additional intermolecular force of repulsion.

The point I and some other people here are trying to press is that every molecule is fundamentally the solid object by itself - if a tiny one. And every solid object follows the same Newtonian laws.
Using my first example - if you throw a 2kg rock, it will generate a momentum twice as low as if you threw 4kg rock. And you can go down this ladder to the molecular or even sub-molecular level - as long as object you are talking about has mass and velocity. Ever heard of light pressure?

BTW, "you may have been partly right if not for" is not exactly acknowledging of being wrong. Actually - not even close to that.
And if you ignored all other examples I've made it doesn't mean I didn't give them.
 Quoting: Tamonten


So how come when I put a 2kg block of cheese in a container, the cheese just sits there in the container where you put it? Now lets say I put some gas in the container the gas expands and fills up the whole container. So yes gas is different than solid and nonsense only comes out of you. Gas increases it state of entropy almost instantly where solids take much much longer. And plasma takes even longer than solid to increase its state of entropy. So there is my life example. Now show me yours.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


Your example is a total nonsense. Your cheese is "sitting there" because of gravitation and adhesion.
Change it with something capable of elastic collision and take it into a place with no gravitation - then we would be on the same wavelength.

You are mixing up cause and effect as always. Entropy is not a primary property of the matter, it's the result of real laws of physics working.

You've been asked several times already and you've ignored the question, but I'll still ask again: When the chamber with gas is opened to the vacuum, what force takes gas out of it? In your opinion? What affects each of its molecules to do so?
 Quoting: Tamonten



You can also think about this from a statistical thermodynamics standpoint. Consider the following thought experiment: You have two containers, one with high pressure gas and another with lower pressure gas. The high pressure container contains a lot of particles per unit volume (that is, it's relatively "full"), and the lower pressure gas contains few particles per unit volume (it's relatively "empty"). When the two containers are put side to side and gas is allowed to flow, the "full," high pressure container will lose particles to the "empty," low pressure one, causing particles to move from high to low pressure again. Note that this effect is purely due to random movement of the particles. The equilibrium position, of equal particle densities everywhere, is simply the one that has the largest chance of happening (and an overwhelmingly large chance at that) in the long run.

Imagine a line in the middle of a field (both side have equal volume), with 10 people on the left side, and 1000 people on the right side. Every minute, every person rolls a dice and if it lands on one, moves to the other side of the field.

So let's see how the distribution changes, purely driven by randomness:

Seconds; # on left side, # on right side

0 10 1000

1 175 835

2 285 725

3 358 652

4 407 603

5 440 570

6 548 652

∞ 505 505

Of course if you conduct this experiment, there will be some noise because of the small number of participants; with trillions and trillions of particles it will be a perfect equilibrium.
Pressure always goes to equilibrium.

P1V1=P2V2

So in space, the left field has no people (vacuum). Since space is a large volume of nothing, the left side of the field is infinitely larger than the right side of the field. People move to the left side from the right side after rolling 1 on the dice. In order for people to move back to the right side of the field, statistically the person has to win the powerball lottery twice instead of just rolling 1 on the dice.

This is why there is no push back onto the right side of the field.

pv=nrt (pressure times volume=n (number of moles) times r (a constant) times t ( temp).

As molecules (people) move from the right side to the left side of the field, only the n (number of moles) changes and assuming the volume of the fields and temperature stay the same, pressure has to change

and

W=-extpdv (Work= negative external pressure time the change in volume.)

If you want to calculate the work done when people (molecules) move from the right field into the left field, external pressure is pressure of left field, change in volume is the volume of people moving from the right field into the left field.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

Remember that future is always proceeded by its shadows.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60005684
Canada
08/21/2015 11:53 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


So how come when I put a 2kg block of cheese in a container, the cheese just sits there in the container where you put it? Now lets say I put some gas in the container the gas expands and fills up the whole container. So yes gas is different than solid and nonsense only comes out of you. Gas increases it state of entropy almost instantly where solids take much much longer. And plasma takes even longer than solid to increase its state of entropy. So there is my life example. Now show me yours.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


Your example is a total nonsense. Your cheese is "sitting there" because of gravitation and adhesion.
Change it with something capable of elastic collision and take it into a place with no gravitation - then we would be on the same wavelength.

You are mixing up cause and effect as always. Entropy is not a primary property of the matter, it's the result of real laws of physics working.

You've been asked several times already and you've ignored the question, but I'll still ask again: When the chamber with gas is opened to the vacuum, what force takes gas out of it? In your opinion? What affects each of its molecules to do so?
 Quoting: Tamonten



You can also think about this from a statistical thermodynamics standpoint. Consider the following thought experiment: You have two containers, one with high pressure gas and another with lower pressure gas. The high pressure container contains a lot of particles per unit volume (that is, it's relatively "full"), and the lower pressure gas contains few particles per unit volume (it's relatively "empty"). When the two containers are put side to side and gas is allowed to flow, the "full," high pressure container will lose particles to the "empty," low pressure one, causing particles to move from high to low pressure again. Note that this effect is purely due to random movement of the particles. The equilibrium position, of equal particle densities everywhere, is simply the one that has the largest chance of happening (and an overwhelmingly large chance at that) in the long run.

Imagine a line in the middle of a field (both side have equal volume), with 10 people on the left side, and 1000 people on the right side. Every minute, every person rolls a dice and if it lands on one, moves to the other side of the field.

So let's see how the distribution changes, purely driven by randomness:

Seconds; # on left side, # on right side

0 10 1000

1 175 835

2 285 725

3 358 652

4 407 603

5 440 570

6 548 652

∞ 505 505

Of course if you conduct this experiment, there will be some noise because of the small number of participants; with trillions and trillions of particles it will be a perfect equilibrium.
Pressure always goes to equilibrium.

P1V1=P2V2

So in space, the left field has no people (vacuum). Since space is a large volume of nothing, the left side of the field is infinitely larger than the right side of the field. People move to the left side from the right side after rolling 1 on the dice. In order for people to move back to the right side of the field, statistically the person has to win the powerball lottery twice instead of just rolling 1 on the dice.

This is why there is no push back onto the right side of the field.

pv=nrt (pressure times volume=n (number of moles) times r (a constant) times t ( temp).

As molecules (people) move from the right side to the left side of the field, only the n (number of moles) changes and assuming the volume of the fields and temperature stay the same, pressure has to change

and

W=-extpdv (Work= negative external pressure time the change in volume.)

If you want to calculate the work done when people (molecules) move from the right field into the left field, external pressure is pressure of left field, change in volume is the volume of people moving from the right field into the left field.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
 Quoting: Tamonten

The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/22/2015 12:37 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


Your example is a total nonsense. Your cheese is "sitting there" because of gravitation and adhesion.
Change it with something capable of elastic collision and take it into a place with no gravitation - then we would be on the same wavelength.

You are mixing up cause and effect as always. Entropy is not a primary property of the matter, it's the result of real laws of physics working.

You've been asked several times already and you've ignored the question, but I'll still ask again: When the chamber with gas is opened to the vacuum, what force takes gas out of it? In your opinion? What affects each of its molecules to do so?
 Quoting: Tamonten



You can also think about this from a statistical thermodynamics standpoint. Consider the following thought experiment: You have two containers, one with high pressure gas and another with lower pressure gas. The high pressure container contains a lot of particles per unit volume (that is, it's relatively "full"), and the lower pressure gas contains few particles per unit volume (it's relatively "empty"). When the two containers are put side to side and gas is allowed to flow, the "full," high pressure container will lose particles to the "empty," low pressure one, causing particles to move from high to low pressure again. Note that this effect is purely due to random movement of the particles. The equilibrium position, of equal particle densities everywhere, is simply the one that has the largest chance of happening (and an overwhelmingly large chance at that) in the long run.

Imagine a line in the middle of a field (both side have equal volume), with 10 people on the left side, and 1000 people on the right side. Every minute, every person rolls a dice and if it lands on one, moves to the other side of the field.

So let's see how the distribution changes, purely driven by randomness:

Seconds; # on left side, # on right side

0 10 1000

1 175 835

2 285 725

3 358 652

4 407 603

5 440 570

6 548 652

∞ 505 505

Of course if you conduct this experiment, there will be some noise because of the small number of participants; with trillions and trillions of particles it will be a perfect equilibrium.
Pressure always goes to equilibrium.

P1V1=P2V2

So in space, the left field has no people (vacuum). Since space is a large volume of nothing, the left side of the field is infinitely larger than the right side of the field. People move to the left side from the right side after rolling 1 on the dice. In order for people to move back to the right side of the field, statistically the person has to win the powerball lottery twice instead of just rolling 1 on the dice.

This is why there is no push back onto the right side of the field.

pv=nrt (pressure times volume=n (number of moles) times r (a constant) times t ( temp).

As molecules (people) move from the right side to the left side of the field, only the n (number of moles) changes and assuming the volume of the fields and temperature stay the same, pressure has to change

and

W=-extpdv (Work= negative external pressure time the change in volume.)

If you want to calculate the work done when people (molecules) move from the right field into the left field, external pressure is pressure of left field, change in volume is the volume of people moving from the right field into the left field.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
 Quoting: Tamonten

The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


People are (relatively) intelligent individuals that base their decisions (including in which queue or room to be) on some objective and subjective factors by analyzing them in their brains.
Molecules of gas are chunks of mass with no intelligence: for them to change location there must be some force making them to do it.
It's your fault your analogy is as far as being physically correct as it's possible.
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

Remember that future is always proceeded by its shadows.
thisismyusername

User ID: 69990137
United States
08/22/2015 12:41 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Op, would you grant that if you fired a rail gun in space, the craft on which the rails are situated would be displaced in the opposite direction to the direction of the projectile.
Further, would you acknowledge that the faster and heavier the projectile, the more force translated into motion of the craft. Does this help you understand propulsion systems in space?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67928177


Won't happen, as there is nothing to "thrust" off of, as space is a vacuum according to science...
"He who strikes terror in others is himself continually in fear." - Claudius Claudianus.

Aka. Tatanka
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/22/2015 12:48 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Op, would you grant that if you fired a rail gun in space, the craft on which the rails are situated would be displaced in the opposite direction to the direction of the projectile.
Further, would you acknowledge that the faster and heavier the projectile, the more force translated into motion of the craft. Does this help you understand propulsion systems in space?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67928177


Won't happen, as there is nothing to "thrust" off of, as space is a vacuum according to science...
 Quoting: thisismyusername


Momentum conservation. This conservation law applies to all interactions, including collisions and separations caused by explosive forces. (c) [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

Remember that future is always proceeded by its shadows.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60005684
Canada
08/22/2015 08:42 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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You can also think about this from a statistical thermodynamics standpoint. Consider the following thought experiment: You have two containers, one with high pressure gas and another with lower pressure gas. The high pressure container contains a lot of particles per unit volume (that is, it's relatively "full"), and the lower pressure gas contains few particles per unit volume (it's relatively "empty"). When the two containers are put side to side and gas is allowed to flow, the "full," high pressure container will lose particles to the "empty," low pressure one, causing particles to move from high to low pressure again. Note that this effect is purely due to random movement of the particles. The equilibrium position, of equal particle densities everywhere, is simply the one that has the largest chance of happening (and an overwhelmingly large chance at that) in the long run.

Imagine a line in the middle of a field (both side have equal volume), with 10 people on the left side, and 1000 people on the right side. Every minute, every person rolls a dice and if it lands on one, moves to the other side of the field.

So let's see how the distribution changes, purely driven by randomness:

Seconds; # on left side, # on right side

0 10 1000

1 175 835

2 285 725

3 358 652

4 407 603

5 440 570

6 548 652

∞ 505 505

Of course if you conduct this experiment, there will be some noise because of the small number of participants; with trillions and trillions of particles it will be a perfect equilibrium.
Pressure always goes to equilibrium.

P1V1=P2V2

So in space, the left field has no people (vacuum). Since space is a large volume of nothing, the left side of the field is infinitely larger than the right side of the field. People move to the left side from the right side after rolling 1 on the dice. In order for people to move back to the right side of the field, statistically the person has to win the powerball lottery twice instead of just rolling 1 on the dice.

This is why there is no push back onto the right side of the field.

pv=nrt (pressure times volume=n (number of moles) times r (a constant) times t ( temp).

As molecules (people) move from the right side to the left side of the field, only the n (number of moles) changes and assuming the volume of the fields and temperature stay the same, pressure has to change

and

W=-extpdv (Work= negative external pressure time the change in volume.)

If you want to calculate the work done when people (molecules) move from the right field into the left field, external pressure is pressure of left field, change in volume is the volume of people moving from the right field into the left field.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
 Quoting: Tamonten

The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


People are (relatively) intelligent individuals that base their decisions (including in which queue or room to be) on some objective and subjective factors by analyzing them in their brains.
Molecules of gas are chunks of mass with no intelligence: for them to change location there must be some force making them to do it.
It's your fault your analogy is as far as being physically correct as it's possible.
 Quoting: Tamonten


I did not say that gas molecules were intelligent. I clearly said it was statistical movement based on molecule movement. Either you didn't read my post or you are just trolling. If you deny the fact gas moves from high pressure to low pressure then you have lost all credibility. This is almost common knowledge.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 65695781
United States
08/22/2015 10:12 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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Your example is a total nonsense. Your cheese is "sitting there" because of gravitation and adhesion.
Change it with something capable of elastic collision and take it into a place with no gravitation - then we would be on the same wavelength.

You are mixing up cause and effect as always. Entropy is not a primary property of the matter, it's the result of real laws of physics working.

You've been asked several times already and you've ignored the question, but I'll still ask again: When the chamber with gas is opened to the vacuum, what force takes gas out of it? In your opinion? What affects each of its molecules to do so?
 Quoting: Tamonten



You can also think about this from a statistical thermodynamics standpoint. Consider the following thought experiment: You have two containers, one with high pressure gas and another with lower pressure gas. The high pressure container contains a lot of particles per unit volume (that is, it's relatively "full"), and the lower pressure gas contains few particles per unit volume (it's relatively "empty"). When the two containers are put side to side and gas is allowed to flow, the "full," high pressure container will lose particles to the "empty," low pressure one, causing particles to move from high to low pressure again. Note that this effect is purely due to random movement of the particles. The equilibrium position, of equal particle densities everywhere, is simply the one that has the largest chance of happening (and an overwhelmingly large chance at that) in the long run.

Imagine a line in the middle of a field (both side have equal volume), with 10 people on the left side, and 1000 people on the right side. Every minute, every person rolls a dice and if it lands on one, moves to the other side of the field.

So let's see how the distribution changes, purely driven by randomness:

Seconds; # on left side, # on right side

0 10 1000

1 175 835

2 285 725

3 358 652

4 407 603

5 440 570

6 548 652

∞ 505 505

Of course if you conduct this experiment, there will be some noise because of the small number of participants; with trillions and trillions of particles it will be a perfect equilibrium.
Pressure always goes to equilibrium.

P1V1=P2V2

So in space, the left field has no people (vacuum). Since space is a large volume of nothing, the left side of the field is infinitely larger than the right side of the field. People move to the left side from the right side after rolling 1 on the dice. In order for people to move back to the right side of the field, statistically the person has to win the powerball lottery twice instead of just rolling 1 on the dice.

This is why there is no push back onto the right side of the field.

pv=nrt (pressure times volume=n (number of moles) times r (a constant) times t ( temp).

As molecules (people) move from the right side to the left side of the field, only the n (number of moles) changes and assuming the volume of the fields and temperature stay the same, pressure has to change

and

W=-extpdv (Work= negative external pressure time the change in volume.)

If you want to calculate the work done when people (molecules) move from the right field into the left field, external pressure is pressure of left field, change in volume is the volume of people moving from the right field into the left field.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69746263


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
 Quoting: Tamonten

The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Your analogy fails. Gas molecules don't stop moving in the direction they were going simply because there is a vacuum present. They'll keep moving int eh same direction and speed as before. So many of them will bounce off the sides of the container and impart a force before they bounce out to the vacuum.
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/22/2015 11:39 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


You didn't even start to answer my question.
There are molecules of gas. What force makes molecules to go from "full" container to "empty" one?
 Quoting: Tamonten

The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


People are (relatively) intelligent individuals that base their decisions (including in which queue or room to be) on some objective and subjective factors by analyzing them in their brains.
Molecules of gas are chunks of mass with no intelligence: for them to change location there must be some force making them to do it.
It's your fault your analogy is as far as being physically correct as it's possible.
 Quoting: Tamonten


I did not say that gas molecules were intelligent. I clearly said it was statistical movement based on molecule movement. Either you didn't read my post or you are just trolling. If you deny the fact gas moves from high pressure to low pressure then you have lost all credibility. This is almost common knowledge.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I didn't ask you about statistics. I've asked about forces affecting each individual molecule and its behavior. You are just saying that molecules go there because they should do so - not explaining why. And exactly in the fact that you don't understand this why, you are also having problems with comprehend rocket mechanics.

Last Edited by Tamonten on 08/22/2015 11:40 AM
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

Remember that future is always proceeded by its shadows.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 70124962
Canada
08/22/2015 01:09 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Rockets don't work in a vacuum. NASA-national association of scam artists
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2015 06:00 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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The analogy in this example was people are gas molecules. If you don't understand that is fine with me. Maybe that is why you are not an engineer like your parents. Don't be disappointed, you have a great job as a Russian patriot.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


People are (relatively) intelligent individuals that base their decisions (including in which queue or room to be) on some objective and subjective factors by analyzing them in their brains.
Molecules of gas are chunks of mass with no intelligence: for them to change location there must be some force making them to do it.
It's your fault your analogy is as far as being physically correct as it's possible.
 Quoting: Tamonten


I did not say that gas molecules were intelligent. I clearly said it was statistical movement based on molecule movement. Either you didn't read my post or you are just trolling. If you deny the fact gas moves from high pressure to low pressure then you have lost all credibility. This is almost common knowledge.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I didn't ask you about statistics. I've asked about forces affecting each individual molecule and its behavior. You are just saying that molecules go there because they should do so - not explaining why. And exactly in the fact that you don't understand this why, you are also having problems with comprehend rocket mechanics.
 Quoting: Tamonten


Yes molecules have kinetic energy and they bounce of each other and the random movement are statistical like I explained to you earlier. Just like molecules bounce around in the balloon. But you don't see the balloon moving do you. So it is you that doesn't know how a rocket works.
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2015 07:34 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Rockets don't work in a vacuum. NASA-national association of scam artists
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70124962


Good thing reality is not defined by your lack of comprehension.

If rockets don't work in a vacuum, then how did the satellites which are provably up there, get there? What about STEREO?
Tamonten

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08/22/2015 07:44 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
I didn't ask you about statistics. I've asked about forces affecting each individual molecule and its behavior. You are just saying that molecules go there because they should do so - not explaining why. And exactly in the fact that you don't understand this why, you are also having problems with comprehend rocket mechanics.
 Quoting: Tamonten


Yes molecules have kinetic energy and they bounce of each other and the random movement are statistical like I explained to you earlier. Just like molecules bounce around in the balloon. But you don't see the balloon moving do you. So it is you that doesn't know how a rocket works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


While balloon - or any other container is hermetically closed, all the random bouncing on the inside compensate each other. According to the same statistic you've been talking about.

And now - another thought experiment.
Let's say, you have two containers with air: one have air pressure of 1.5 atm, another - 0.5 atm. Containers are of the same volume. Between them there are a pipe with a closed valve. Also in the pipe a small feather is laying - not blocking anything. Will the feather move the moment valve is opened? What will move it?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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08/22/2015 08:03 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
I didn't ask you about statistics. I've asked about forces affecting each individual molecule and its behavior. You are just saying that molecules go there because they should do so - not explaining why. And exactly in the fact that you don't understand this why, you are also having problems with comprehend rocket mechanics.
 Quoting: Tamonten


Yes molecules have kinetic energy and they bounce of each other and the random movement are statistical like I explained to you earlier. Just like molecules bounce around in the balloon. But you don't see the balloon moving do you. So it is you that doesn't know how a rocket works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


While balloon - or any other container is hermetically closed, all the random bouncing on the inside compensate each other. According to the same statistic you've been talking about.

And now - another thought experiment.
Let's say, you have two containers with air: one have air pressure of 1.5 atm, another - 0.5 atm. Containers are of the same volume. Between them there are a pipe with a closed valve. Also in the pipe a small feather is laying - not blocking anything. Will the feather move the moment valve is opened? What will move it?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Clearly the feather will move because it's the same concept as wind. However the feather is in the path of the flow of air. The rocket is not in the path of air flow.
Tamonten

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Russia
08/22/2015 09:47 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
I didn't ask you about statistics. I've asked about forces affecting each individual molecule and its behavior. You are just saying that molecules go there because they should do so - not explaining why. And exactly in the fact that you don't understand this why, you are also having problems with comprehend rocket mechanics.
 Quoting: Tamonten


Yes molecules have kinetic energy and they bounce of each other and the random movement are statistical like I explained to you earlier. Just like molecules bounce around in the balloon. But you don't see the balloon moving do you. So it is you that doesn't know how a rocket works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


While balloon - or any other container is hermetically closed, all the random bouncing on the inside compensate each other. According to the same statistic you've been talking about.

And now - another thought experiment.
Let's say, you have two containers with air: one have air pressure of 1.5 atm, another - 0.5 atm. Containers are of the same volume. Between them there are a pipe with a closed valve. Also in the pipe a small feather is laying - not blocking anything. Will the feather move the moment valve is opened? What will move it?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Clearly the feather will move because it's the same concept as wind. However the feather is in the path of the flow of air. The rocket is not in the path of air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


We'll come to this. I'm trying to explain step by step.

Ok. Next thought experiment.
This time we have container with 0.5 atm air, pipe, valve and feather with no second container - but all this construction is situated in seemingly infinite vacuum (not in space - we still need gravitation - just in a very big volume devoid of air).
After valve is opened, will feather move? If yes, will be the path made by the feather be the same?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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Anonymous Coward
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08/23/2015 08:23 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


Yes molecules have kinetic energy and they bounce of each other and the random movement are statistical like I explained to you earlier. Just like molecules bounce around in the balloon. But you don't see the balloon moving do you. So it is you that doesn't know how a rocket works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


While balloon - or any other container is hermetically closed, all the random bouncing on the inside compensate each other. According to the same statistic you've been talking about.

And now - another thought experiment.
Let's say, you have two containers with air: one have air pressure of 1.5 atm, another - 0.5 atm. Containers are of the same volume. Between them there are a pipe with a closed valve. Also in the pipe a small feather is laying - not blocking anything. Will the feather move the moment valve is opened? What will move it?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Clearly the feather will move because it's the same concept as wind. However the feather is in the path of the flow of air. The rocket is not in the path of air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


We'll come to this. I'm trying to explain step by step.

Ok. Next thought experiment.
This time we have container with 0.5 atm air, pipe, valve and feather with no second container - but all this construction is situated in seemingly infinite vacuum (not in space - we still need gravitation - just in a very big volume devoid of air).
After valve is opened, will feather move? If yes, will be the path made by the feather be the same?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Well if the pipe has no air originally, technically it can be considered a second container as the 0.5 atm has flow to the empty pipe when the valve is open. However, if the pipe was already the same pressure as the container, there would be no movement of the feather when the valve is open.

Go to next step.
Tamonten

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Russia
08/23/2015 08:31 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


While balloon - or any other container is hermetically closed, all the random bouncing on the inside compensate each other. According to the same statistic you've been talking about.

And now - another thought experiment.
Let's say, you have two containers with air: one have air pressure of 1.5 atm, another - 0.5 atm. Containers are of the same volume. Between them there are a pipe with a closed valve. Also in the pipe a small feather is laying - not blocking anything. Will the feather move the moment valve is opened? What will move it?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Clearly the feather will move because it's the same concept as wind. However the feather is in the path of the flow of air. The rocket is not in the path of air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


We'll come to this. I'm trying to explain step by step.

Ok. Next thought experiment.
This time we have container with 0.5 atm air, pipe, valve and feather with no second container - but all this construction is situated in seemingly infinite vacuum (not in space - we still need gravitation - just in a very big volume devoid of air).
After valve is opened, will feather move? If yes, will be the path made by the feather be the same?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Well if the pipe has no air originally, technically it can be considered a second container as the 0.5 atm has flow to the empty pipe when the valve is open. However, if the pipe was already the same pressure as the container, there would be no movement of the feather when the valve is open.

Go to next step.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I'm doing it this way for a reason. Step-by-step makes it clear where we don't understand each other. And, it seem to me, we already stumbled on it.

For the next step we - to be sure - repeat both experiments, but with two feathers in each. One feather is in the pipe "before" the valve, and another one "after" the valve. I.e. in second experiment one of the feathers will be in vacuum and another one is in air.
What happens with each feather in each case?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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Anonymous Coward
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Canada
08/23/2015 08:47 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


Clearly the feather will move because it's the same concept as wind. However the feather is in the path of the flow of air. The rocket is not in the path of air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


We'll come to this. I'm trying to explain step by step.

Ok. Next thought experiment.
This time we have container with 0.5 atm air, pipe, valve and feather with no second container - but all this construction is situated in seemingly infinite vacuum (not in space - we still need gravitation - just in a very big volume devoid of air).
After valve is opened, will feather move? If yes, will be the path made by the feather be the same?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Well if the pipe has no air originally, technically it can be considered a second container as the 0.5 atm has flow to the empty pipe when the valve is open. However, if the pipe was already the same pressure as the container, there would be no movement of the feather when the valve is open.

Go to next step.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I'm doing it this way for a reason. Step-by-step makes it clear where we don't understand each other. And, it seem to me, we already stumbled on it.

For the next step we - to be sure - repeat both experiments, but with two feathers in each. One feather is in the pipe "before" the valve, and another one "after" the valve. I.e. in second experiment one of the feathers will be in vacuum and another one is in air.
What happens with each feather in each case?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers move in each case due the air flow.
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/23/2015 08:57 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


We'll come to this. I'm trying to explain step by step.

Ok. Next thought experiment.
This time we have container with 0.5 atm air, pipe, valve and feather with no second container - but all this construction is situated in seemingly infinite vacuum (not in space - we still need gravitation - just in a very big volume devoid of air).
After valve is opened, will feather move? If yes, will be the path made by the feather be the same?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Well if the pipe has no air originally, technically it can be considered a second container as the 0.5 atm has flow to the empty pipe when the valve is open. However, if the pipe was already the same pressure as the container, there would be no movement of the feather when the valve is open.

Go to next step.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I'm doing it this way for a reason. Step-by-step makes it clear where we don't understand each other. And, it seem to me, we already stumbled on it.

For the next step we - to be sure - repeat both experiments, but with two feathers in each. One feather is in the pipe "before" the valve, and another one "after" the valve. I.e. in second experiment one of the feathers will be in vacuum and another one is in air.
What happens with each feather in each case?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers move in each case due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. So far we are on the same road.

Next. The same system as the second experiment, but it's vacuum in it. In the container instead of gas there is a gunpowder mixed with solid-state oxidizer. We detonate it (assuming that container is durable enough) and have a lot of CO2 and whatever other gases filling the container up to the same 0.5 atm - and then open the valves.
Feathers?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

Remember that future is always proceeded by its shadows.
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
08/24/2015 07:30 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


Well if the pipe has no air originally, technically it can be considered a second container as the 0.5 atm has flow to the empty pipe when the valve is open. However, if the pipe was already the same pressure as the container, there would be no movement of the feather when the valve is open.

Go to next step.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


I'm doing it this way for a reason. Step-by-step makes it clear where we don't understand each other. And, it seem to me, we already stumbled on it.

For the next step we - to be sure - repeat both experiments, but with two feathers in each. One feather is in the pipe "before" the valve, and another one "after" the valve. I.e. in second experiment one of the feathers will be in vacuum and another one is in air.
What happens with each feather in each case?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers move in each case due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. So far we are on the same road.

Next. The same system as the second experiment, but it's vacuum in it. In the container instead of gas there is a gunpowder mixed with solid-state oxidizer. We detonate it (assuming that container is durable enough) and have a lot of CO2 and whatever other gases filling the container up to the same 0.5 atm - and then open the valves.
Feathers?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers still move because the container is no longer a vacuum because it is now at 0.5atm. The system becomes the exact same as the previous step. Both feathers move due the air flow.
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/24/2015 09:47 AM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


I'm doing it this way for a reason. Step-by-step makes it clear where we don't understand each other. And, it seem to me, we already stumbled on it.

For the next step we - to be sure - repeat both experiments, but with two feathers in each. One feather is in the pipe "before" the valve, and another one "after" the valve. I.e. in second experiment one of the feathers will be in vacuum and another one is in air.
What happens with each feather in each case?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers move in each case due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. So far we are on the same road.

Next. The same system as the second experiment, but it's vacuum in it. In the container instead of gas there is a gunpowder mixed with solid-state oxidizer. We detonate it (assuming that container is durable enough) and have a lot of CO2 and whatever other gases filling the container up to the same 0.5 atm - and then open the valves.
Feathers?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers still move because the container is no longer a vacuum because it is now at 0.5atm. The system becomes the exact same as the previous step. Both feathers move due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Next.
The same experiment, but the valve is opened from the start.
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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Anonymous Coward
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Canada
08/24/2015 07:55 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
...


Both feathers move in each case due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. So far we are on the same road.

Next. The same system as the second experiment, but it's vacuum in it. In the container instead of gas there is a gunpowder mixed with solid-state oxidizer. We detonate it (assuming that container is durable enough) and have a lot of CO2 and whatever other gases filling the container up to the same 0.5 atm - and then open the valves.
Feathers?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers still move because the container is no longer a vacuum because it is now at 0.5atm. The system becomes the exact same as the previous step. Both feathers move due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Next.
The same experiment, but the valve is opened from the start.
 Quoting: Tamonten


There is no movement but if there is combustion then bot feathers move again just like before
Tamonten

User ID: 34754802
Russia
08/24/2015 10:26 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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Ok. So far we are on the same road.

Next. The same system as the second experiment, but it's vacuum in it. In the container instead of gas there is a gunpowder mixed with solid-state oxidizer. We detonate it (assuming that container is durable enough) and have a lot of CO2 and whatever other gases filling the container up to the same 0.5 atm - and then open the valves.
Feathers?
 Quoting: Tamonten


Both feathers still move because the container is no longer a vacuum because it is now at 0.5atm. The system becomes the exact same as the previous step. Both feathers move due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Next.
The same experiment, but the valve is opened from the start.
 Quoting: Tamonten


There is no movement but if there is combustion then bot feathers move again just like before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Now we are in the vacuum chamber. on the floor of it is a circle of feathers. In the center of circle the same explosion device are before.
Will feathers move when the explosion occurs?
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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08/25/2015 07:52 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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Both feathers still move because the container is no longer a vacuum because it is now at 0.5atm. The system becomes the exact same as the previous step. Both feathers move due the air flow.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Next.
The same experiment, but the valve is opened from the start.
 Quoting: Tamonten


There is no movement but if there is combustion then bot feathers move again just like before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Now we are in the vacuum chamber. on the floor of it is a circle of feathers. In the center of circle the same explosion device are before.
Will feathers move when the explosion occurs?
 Quoting: Tamonten


yes because the combustion gases will fill the chamber so there is air movement. If the valve is open and the other container is also under vac, the feathers will land in the pipe or the second container as this is the area the air will fill last.
Tamonten

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08/25/2015 08:15 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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Ok. Next.
The same experiment, but the valve is opened from the start.
 Quoting: Tamonten


There is no movement but if there is combustion then bot feathers move again just like before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Now we are in the vacuum chamber. on the floor of it is a circle of feathers. In the center of circle the same explosion device are before.
Will feathers move when the explosion occurs?
 Quoting: Tamonten


yes because the combustion gases will fill the chamber so there is air movement. If the valve is open and the other container is also under vac, the feathers will land in the pipe or the second container as this is the area the air will fill last.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


No, you didn't understand me. In this case I'm talking about the "big" vacuum chamber - that is on outside of the containers.
"When every one is dead the Great Game is finished. Not before." - Rudyard Kipling, "Kim" (1901)
"But we are still alive." - Thread: "The Great Game" by Mikhail Leontyev (2007-2008)

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." - Brandon Sanderson, "The Way of Kings"
"Russia is the great Christian country with rich Islamic history" - Vladimir Solovyov (Russian Jew)
Quos Iupiter perdere vult, dementat.
"Europe can wait while the Russian tsar fishes." - Alexander III The Peacemaker

Thread: I'm Russian – ask me a question. Be it about Russia or a personal one.
Thread: From Rus' to Russia - grand concert on the Red Square, June 12th 2015 - please help with translation!

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08/25/2015 08:26 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
Rockets don't work in a vacuum. NASA-national association of scam artists
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 70124962


Good thing reality is not defined by your lack of comprehension.

If rockets don't work in a vacuum, then how did the satellites which are provably up there, get there? What about STEREO?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65695781


Sigh. 'Provably'??

So when you google pictures of satellites, an actual picture should come up. But it doesn't.

This is your first clue.
Anonymous Coward
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08/25/2015 08:50 PM
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Re: Do rockets work in space?
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There is no movement but if there is combustion then bot feathers move again just like before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


Ok. Now we are in the vacuum chamber. on the floor of it is a circle of feathers. In the center of circle the same explosion device are before.
Will feathers move when the explosion occurs?
 Quoting: Tamonten


yes because the combustion gases will fill the chamber so there is air movement. If the valve is open and the other container is also under vac, the feathers will land in the pipe or the second container as this is the area the air will fill last.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60005684


No, you didn't understand me. In this case I'm talking about the "big" vacuum chamber - that is on outside of the containers.
 Quoting: Tamonten

The feathers will move because the air would spread evenly in all directions of the vacuum as the pressure is initially 0 in every direction.





GLP