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| 11:46 PM | ||
Do most people on WELFARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, etc..realize that... | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 709467  United States07/11/2009 05:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Jackinthebox  User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Without an unemployment system with regulations, lawyers, policy makers, and such, THERE IS NO UNEMPLOYMENT! Quoting: NoMoreCagesMy god, you're dense, man. Quoi? I've never seen someone fall flat on their face so hard in a debate. If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!  Last Edited by Jackinthebox on 07/11/2009 05:26 PM When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475  Germany07/11/2009 05:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | What would you have me do? go work minimum wage? after taxes i would bring home 230$ or something? Im gettin twice that to do nothing. I cant afford to make any less. Sorry I didnt make the system, but I have paid into it for 25 years. Im damn sure going to use it. Your reluctance to engage in debate about how it effects you shows you just started this thread for some attention. Quoting: mfglThis ENTIRE THREAD is about how it effects me! Are you in a drunken stupor, or something? Just because I haven't given you details about my occupation, you think my input is irrelevant? Are you really this stupid? Is anyone? stalker. No, im not in a stupor. but you are claiming it effects you because your taxes are paying me. Forget the fact that your tax rate hasnt changed even though unemployment is nearing 10% so your whole point is moot. My point is you could very easily be doing a worthless government job that my tax dollars pay for. Or you could work for a company that my consumer dollars pay for. So yes, just because you wont say what you do for a living or even deny (which im sure you will now without any detail) that you dont work off tax dollars, that your input is irrelevant. Do you have a job that makes you singularly identifiable? If you told us everyone on this forum would know who you are? I doubt it. Your just not quick enough on your feet to have a two way conversation, so you just insult others without opening yourself up at all. WEAK Talk about boring, and being completely void of any creativity, you keep spamming this thread with the EXACT SAME QUESTION over and over. Wow, you're lucky, you never had to work for me..your ass wouldn't have lasted 2 weeks, let alone 25 yrs. I bet you still haunt your poor former employer, with your ridiculous nagging thoughts. Have you ever been committed? You fit the m.o. for one who knows what a padded cell looks like from the inside. "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 571008 United States07/11/2009 05:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Without an unemployment system with regulations, lawyers, policy makers, and such, THERE IS NO UNEMPLOYMENT! Quoting: JackintheboxMy god, you're dense, man. Quoi? I've never seen someone fall flat on their face so hard in a debate. If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED! :epicfail: "If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!" DAMN DAMN DAMN MAN THATS GOOD STUFF ! Belongs on a T-Shirt |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Without an unemployment system with regulations, lawyers, policy makers, and such, THERE IS NO UNEMPLOYMENT! Quoting: JackintheboxMy god, you're dense, man. Quoi? I've never seen someone fall flat on their face so hard in a debate. If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED! No shit, sherlock...did you think of that all yourself? However, they wouldn't be on my dime (as much), but you knew that, you just enjoy getting smashed in debates. "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 721883 United States07/11/2009 05:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!" Quoting: Anonymous Coward 571008DAMN DAMN DAMN MAN THATS GOOD STUFF ! Belongs on a T-Shirt Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!" Quoting: JackintheboxDAMN DAMN DAMN MAN THATS GOOD STUFF ! Belongs on a T-Shirt Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? lol..this coming from a self-proclaimed, proud to be, homeless, unemployed douchebag.  "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| tangelo User ID: 722639 United States07/11/2009 05:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? Quoting: JackintheboxThe most ironic thing about this thread is that this OP's mentality is one of the MOST OBVIOUS examples that the gov can and does get away with this illusion. By spewing his anger in the complete wrong direction (by years of successful and deliberate perception manipulation marketing by the gov) he is so wrapped up in a frenzy of anger at the 'enemy' (here's the example of perception manipulation and diversion tactic at it's finest)....that he cannot see the facts clearly. So by posting this thread and the comments that continue to display a lack of understanidng it is really akin to shooting one's own self in the foot and then screaming at the standers by......."Stop shooting me!" as the crowd looks at the person shooting themselves in bewilderment and thinks...."Is he crazy?" |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | No shit, sherlock...did you think of that all yourself? Quoting: NoMoreCagesAnd obviously that bird flew right over your head and shit on your hat. However, they wouldn't be on my dime (as much), but you knew that, you just enjoy getting smashed in debates. Quoting: NoMoreCagesI got smashed?  So tell me chinballs, where does money come from? Better yet, where does it go when you pay your taxes? Why don't you do a whereisgeorge and come back and tell us the results. :cypher4: When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 654537 United States07/11/2009 05:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 721883 United States07/11/2009 05:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:35 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!" Quoting: NoMoreCagesDAMN DAMN DAMN MAN THATS GOOD STUFF ! Belongs on a T-Shirt Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? lol..this coming from a self-proclaimed, proud to be, homeless, unemployed douchebag. I never said I was proud, but I am certainly not ashamed. So you know what, I think maybe I will head on down to the welfare line now for my cut of your check.  When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:36 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? Quoting: tangeloThe most ironic thing about this thread is that this OP's mentality is one of the MOST OBVIOUS examples that the gov can and does get away with this illusion. By spewing his anger in the complete wrong direction (by years of successful and deliberate perception manipulation marketing by the gov) he is so wrapped up in a frenzy of anger at the 'enemy' (here's the example of perception manipulation and diversion tactic at it's finest)....that he cannot see the facts clearly. So by posting this thread and the comments that continue to display a lack of understanidng it is really akin to shooting one's own self in the foot and then screaming at the standers by......."Stop shooting me!" as the crowd looks at the person shooting themselves in bewilderment and thinks...."Is he crazy?" Holy shit, you really ARE THAT DILUSIONAL! You are one the 'entitled' ones, who believes your freebies come magically from the gov't...this is the irony in your obscenely unstable mentality. "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "If you took away the unemployment system right now, all of those people would be, drumroll now...UNEMPLOYED!" Quoting: JackintheboxDAMN DAMN DAMN MAN THATS GOOD STUFF ! Belongs on a T-Shirt Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? lol..this coming from a self-proclaimed, proud to be, homeless, unemployed douchebag. I never said I was proud, but I am certainly not ashamed. So you know what, I think maybe I will head on down to the welfare line now for my cut of your check. Hey, it hasn't stopped you the past several years! Enjoy a beer with my money too! "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | One young lady I know had a baby at 15 and has no money for electricity, gas, water, food. She lives with her mom who lost her job and her car was reposessed. She couldn't figure out why I wouldn't invite them to live with me! I paid to keep her water bill on so the baby could have formula. Why in the world do people automatically think others who "have" should take care of those who don't "have" when the entire reason they have nothing is because of continual poor choices? Perhaps we are going to have to let people in this country starve before they realize they have to fend for themselves. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 654537+10000000000 "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 607756 United States07/11/2009 05:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? Quoting: tangeloThe most ironic thing about this thread is that this OP's mentality is one of the MOST OBVIOUS examples that the gov can and does get away with this illusion. By spewing his anger in the complete wrong direction (by years of successful and deliberate perception manipulation marketing by the gov) he is so wrapped up in a frenzy of anger at the 'enemy' (here's the example of perception manipulation and diversion tactic at it's finest)....that he cannot see the facts clearly. So by posting this thread and the comments that continue to display a lack of understanidng it is really akin to shooting one's own self in the foot and then screaming at the standers by......."Stop shooting me!" as the crowd looks at the person shooting themselves in bewilderment and thinks...."Is he crazy?" The really scary part is the whole fucking crowd is shooting themeselves in the foot. I have seen so many people with the same exact mentality that this moron has, get the rudest awakening of their lives in the past few years. A few people were so indoctrinated into this line of thinking, that they short-circuited when it all came crashing down for them. Some lost it mentally, some killed themselves, some are drowning at the bottom of a bottle, still unable to face the truth that is now plainly obvious all around them now when they wake up each and every day. This moron sits here laughing at me because I am homeless, well, I was not always homeless. But even when I was doing well, quite well in fact, I never was as stupid as this guy is. I suppose that is why I didn't snap when the bottom fell out. I had no illusions to start with. When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I never said I was proud, but I am certainly not ashamed. Quoting: NoMoreCagesSo you know what, I think maybe I will head on down to the welfare line now for my cut of your check. Hey, it hasn't stopped you the past several years! Enjoy a beer with my money too! What the fuck are you even talking about, the last few years? When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 473495 United States07/11/2009 05:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | One young lady I know had a baby at 15 and has no money for electricity, gas, water, food. She lives with her mom who lost her job and her car was reposessed. She couldn't figure out why I wouldn't invite them to live with me! I paid to keep her water bill on so the baby could have formula. Why in the world do people automatically think others who "have" should take care of those who don't "have" when the entire reason they have nothing is because of continual poor choices? Perhaps we are going to have to let people in this country starve before they realize they have to fend for themselves. Quoting: NoMoreCages+10000000000 It is illegal to fend for yourself. When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:44 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? Quoting: JackintheboxThe most ironic thing about this thread is that this OP's mentality is one of the MOST OBVIOUS examples that the gov can and does get away with this illusion. By spewing his anger in the complete wrong direction (by years of successful and deliberate perception manipulation marketing by the gov) he is so wrapped up in a frenzy of anger at the 'enemy' (here's the example of perception manipulation and diversion tactic at it's finest)....that he cannot see the facts clearly. So by posting this thread and the comments that continue to display a lack of understanidng it is really akin to shooting one's own self in the foot and then screaming at the standers by......."Stop shooting me!" as the crowd looks at the person shooting themselves in bewilderment and thinks...."Is he crazy?" The really scary part is the whole fucking crowd is shooting themeselves in the foot. I have seen so many people with the same exact mentality that this moron has, get the rudest awakening of their lives in the past few years. A few people were so indoctrinated into this line of thinking, that they short-circuited when it all came crashing down for them. Some lost it mentally, some killed themselves, some are drowning at the bottom of a bottle, still unable to face the truth that is now plainly obvious all around them now when they wake up each and every day. This moron sits here laughing at me because I am homeless, well, I was not always homeless. But even when I was doing well, quite well in fact, I never was as stupid as this guy is. I suppose that is why I didn't snap when the bottom fell out. I had no illusions to start with. So tell me, enlightened one, what's stopping you from creating a job? I created MANY starting with virually NOTHING, in what many call a very 'unfriendly to business' state. "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 548111  United Kingdom07/11/2009 05:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The Grand Design (1968) This is how they control the people daily. They solve the basic problems of food, clothing & shelter by providing you with jobs. Every two weeks they pay you in debt notes & within ten days you have given it all back. You don't even know it's not real money & that the nations are all under bankruptcy & everything is prepaid. You are so conditioned you can't believe it, you deny it & you continue to go along with the corporate central bank tax scam. That leaves you free to solve more pressing problems like cash or charge, wine or beer, window or aisle, smoking or non, Oprah or American Idol Worship. You work all day in a corporate sweat shop. You pay taxes to the corporation of [your country name] then you watch Corporate news scare you to death with terror, murder, rape & corruption. You watch some sitcom Friends lie & cheat on each other for a laugh then you finish off the evening by witnessing some Criminal Minds plot & commit murder |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 722652  Thailand07/11/2009 05:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | First of all, unless you live in my state, you dont contribute to my unemployment, secondly I had to work to pay into the UC account to be able to collect, so its my money. Thirdly without knowing what you do and who you work for its impossible to give a quality response, for all we know you work for the government, in which case we all pay the salary that is taxed in the first place. Quoting: NoMoreCages------------- Are you people capable of reading comprehension? Look at the 1st sentence of my op...I realize I'm not the ONLY person paying for YOUR FREEBIES. How was that dinner I bought you last night? Man, reading your response was painful, OP. I don't think I have it in me to follow the rest of this thread based on that failed logic. Sorry man, it is you who is not reading. / |
| Mark User ID: 723223 United States07/11/2009 05:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ...You and your family's entire life, food, housing, medical is dependant upon me (and every other working persons') hard work and income? Quoting: NoMoreCagesI pay for your livelihood, so DO NOT complain about being 'shortchanged' on any of your handouts (unemployment running out, free medical taken away) -- it is coming out of MY POCKET! You people on welfare/unemployment are going to be mighty shocked when the earners are not earning and therefore not paying taxes. This is all a TAX on anyone with any money or earnings - that is what you people are doing - taking MY wealth! So, the question is...What have you given ME lately?   you shouldn't be worried about helping other people out. you should be pissed that bush spent 900 billion on a pointless war, which in result probably put a billion in his own bank account. I'm not on welfare or anything, but if 40 cents out of my paycheck can contribute to helping hundreds of thousands of others, than i will gladly donate my 40 cents. So 900 billion was the estimated war in iraq budget at one point, anyone know how much welfare costs the government each year? i bet you will feel silly OP "The truth will set us free, but first it will piss us off." |
| tangelo User ID: 722639 United States07/11/2009 05:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lol, I mean come on now. Did this guy eat some stupid for breakfast this morning or what? Quoting: JackintheboxThe most ironic thing about this thread is that this OP's mentality is one of the MOST OBVIOUS examples that the gov can and does get away with this illusion. By spewing his anger in the complete wrong direction (by years of successful and deliberate perception manipulation marketing by the gov) he is so wrapped up in a frenzy of anger at the 'enemy' (here's the example of perception manipulation and diversion tactic at it's finest)....that he cannot see the facts clearly. So by posting this thread and the comments that continue to display a lack of understanidng it is really akin to shooting one's own self in the foot and then screaming at the standers by......."Stop shooting me!" as the crowd looks at the person shooting themselves in bewilderment and thinks...."Is he crazy?" The really scary part is the whole fucking crowd is shooting themeselves in the foot. I have seen so many people with the same exact mentality that this moron has, get the rudest awakening of their lives in the past few years. A few people were so indoctrinated into this line of thinking, that they short-circuited when it all came crashing down for them. Some lost it mentally, some killed themselves, some are drowning at the bottom of a bottle, still unable to face the truth that is now plainly obvious all around them now when they wake up each and every day. This moron sits here laughing at me because I am homeless, well, I was not always homeless. But even when I was doing well, quite well in fact, I never was as stupid as this guy is. I suppose that is why I didn't snap when the bottom fell out. I had no illusions to start with. Yes, I have seen what you speak of too. But the way you said it (in describing what happens to those people) adds a humanity to it. I will admit that it is difficult to have pity for those who are just plain stubborn and obnoxious. But, when somebody is down.....sometimes there is a real change that takes place. It is good when that happens. I've been there myself like you have. As far as I am concerned.....people that need to use their self-assigned superiority in order to make a statement are the true paupers in this life. Whether realized by that individual or not. |
| Jackinthebox User ID: 714951 United States07/11/2009 05:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | So tell me, enlightened one, what's stopping you from creating a job? Quoting: NoMoreCagesI created MANY starting with virually NOTHING, in what many call a very 'unfriendly to business' state. Did you see the thread about the homeless guy who went out and started shining shoes? They put him in jail for not having a permit. And they also took the money he had saved up as security on an apartment. I started a window cleaning business, and almost went to prison for extortion, because some business owner complained that they "had the impression" that if they turned down my services they wouldn't have any windows to clean. Shall I give some more examples? When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" -Revelation 6:5, 6:6 |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 721989  Spain07/11/2009 05:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ...You and your family's entire life, food, housing, medical is dependant upon me (and every other working persons') hard work and income? Quoting: NoMoreCagesI pay for your livelihood, so DO NOT complain about being 'shortchanged' on any of your handouts (unemployment running out, free medical taken away) -- it is coming out of MY POCKET! OP needs to loss its job and start to see the world from another point of view. And there is where karma comes, when people looks for it desperatly. |
| Mark User ID: 723223 United States07/11/2009 05:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The Grand Design (1968) Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548111This is how they control the people daily. They solve the basic problems of food, clothing & shelter by providing you with jobs. Every two weeks they pay you in debt notes & within ten days you have given it all back. You don't even know it's not real money & that the nations are all under bankruptcy & everything is prepaid. You are so conditioned you can't believe it, you deny it & you continue to go along with the corporate central bank tax scam. That leaves you free to solve more pressing problems like cash or charge, wine or beer, window or aisle, smoking or non, Oprah or American Idol Worship. You work all day in a corporate sweat shop. You pay taxes to the corporation of [your country name] then you watch Corporate news scare you to death with terror, murder, rape & corruption. You watch some sitcom Friends lie & cheat on each other for a laugh then you finish off the evening by witnessing some Criminal Minds plot & commit murder Amen. "The truth will set us free, but first it will piss us off." |
| NoMoreCages (OP) User ID: 719475 Germany07/11/2009 05:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ...You and your family's entire life, food, housing, medical is dependant upon me (and every other working persons') hard work and income? Quoting: MarkI pay for your livelihood, so DO NOT complain about being 'shortchanged' on any of your handouts (unemployment running out, free medical taken away) -- it is coming out of MY POCKET! You people on welfare/unemployment are going to be mighty shocked when the earners are not earning and therefore not paying taxes. This is all a TAX on anyone with any money or earnings - that is what you people are doing - taking MY wealth! So, the question is...What have you given ME lately? you shouldn't be worried about helping other people out. you should be pissed that bush spent 900 billion on a pointless war, which in result probably put a billion in his own bank account. I'm not on welfare or anything, but if 40 cents out of my paycheck can contribute to helping hundreds of thousands of others, than i will gladly donate my 40 cents. So 900 billion was the estimated war in iraq budget at one point, anyone know how much welfare costs the government each year? i bet you will feel silly OP I agree with you 100% about the pointless fucking wars...you're barking up the wrong tree with that one, guy. the rest of your post makes zero sense. "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But can they suffer?" - Bentham |
