Novel Fusion Process with Levitating Magnet May Yield New Approach to Clean Energy | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 746537 United States 01/30/2010 11:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Maguyver User ID: 877942 United States 01/30/2010 11:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | They have been toying with this for a while now. Containing the plasma in a magnetic field makes sense because of the incredible heat. The next big leap will be creating matter that can tolerate a close proximity to this heat. We are talking millions of degrees in a sustained reaction (hasn't happened yet). That heat is the energy we can use. Can't use it without metals, ceramics, or something else to tranport that heat to a steam turbine. Adversity is inevitable, misery is optional. Do or do not. There is no try. "The enemy will never attack where you are strongest...He will attack where you are weakest. If you do not know your weakest point, be certain, your enemy will." Sun Tzu |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 858166 United States 01/30/2010 11:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | for hard science. I love this stuff. But I wonder how much it matters. It takes a lot of power to levitate something that weighs a half-ton, so any fusion will have to generate that much more to pay for itself. We shall see, I hope. |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/30/2010 11:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | far out ... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 746537highly dangerous too :D i bet it is incredibly dangerous to work around, & i agree, it's far out, but also very hopeful i think..if we are ever going to reach the stars it's my understanding that it will have be though fusion or some other totally new energy source/system, so i was pleasantly surprised to read these articles :-). We learn so many amazing things so fast these days, it's astounding to think where we could be 100 years from now. Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Project_Deimos User ID: 705825 United States 01/30/2010 11:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | sounds like an analogue of polywell fusion. [link to www.emc2fusion.org] [link to en.wikipedia.org] "There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/30/2010 11:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Quoting: Project_Deimos thanks for the links!!! I'd not read of this one before :-) thought i'd post a bit here from the Wiki link since if fits with the thread theme... The polywell is related to various other plasma confinement concepts, but differs markedly from all of them. It is most closely related to the fusor, which, like the polywell, confines ions by an inwardly directed electric field and requires a grid of solid-state electrodes within the plasma vessel. Both concepts intend to operate with a highly non-thermal, ideally mono-energetic, distribution of ion energies[5]. If the ion energies can be held near the optimum value, the fusion rate for a given plasma pressure can be a few times higher than the maximum rate possible for ions with a thermal distribution. On the other hand, collisions and collective instabilities have a tendency to restore a thermal distribution, so that it generally costs power to maintain a mono-energetic distribution. The polywell differs from the fusor in that the electrons are magnetically confined, so that it is also related to magnetic confinement fusion, most closely to magnetic mirrors. In common with magnetic mirrors is the field minimum in the central region, the confinement (in part) by the mirror effect, and (at least to some extent) a non-thermal distribution of the electron energies. In some mirror configurations, the field in the center is a minimum in every direction, as it is in the central region of a polywell. The magnetic field in such a case is said to have "good curvature" because a certain class of fluctuations are stable in a plasma contained by such a field. In contrast to mirror machines, the polywell does not just have a minimum in the field strength in the center, the field vanishes entirely there. Also the polywell does not have a magnetic axis, but rather a polyhedral symmetry. The most actively developed plasma confinement concept at this time is the tokamak, the concept behind ITER. A net power fusion reactor based on the tokamak concept, if possible, would certainly be a large and complex machine. The advocates of the polywell predict that a polywell reactor of similar power would be much smaller and simpler. The tokamak has a toroidal geometry with nested flux surfaces, so that both ions and electrons can only be lost by transport across magnetic field lines (primarily as a result of instabilities with very short wavelengths). The confinement of particles in a polywell is more complex, involving both magnetic and electric fields, transport of particles both across and along magnetic field lines, and different processes for the ions than for the electrons. Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/30/2010 11:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | They have been toying with this for a while now. Containing the plasma in a magnetic field makes sense because of the incredible heat. Quoting: MaguyverThe next big leap will be creating matter that can tolerate a close proximity to this heat. We are talking millions of degrees in a sustained reaction (hasn't happened yet). That heat is the energy we can use. Can't use it without metals, ceramics, or something else to tranport that heat to a steam turbine. how far away do you think we are from being able to produce a material able to contain the field and heat? Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 12:05 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Zerocyber User ID: 648354 United States 01/30/2010 11:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If I was a politican, I'd stick with Nuclear power until they discover something cheaper and better. Until then, we have keep on the look out for some kind of Cold Fusion or Geothermal (indirect) research to find the next thing. But anything that is safe and cheap will work fine. It just needs to be safe (So no coal, clean coal, etc) and cheap (so no wind mills or stupid solar plants). |
Project_Deimos User ID: 705825 United States 01/30/2010 11:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "Levitation is crucial because the magnetic field used to confine the plasma would be disturbed by any objects in its way, such as any supports used to hold the magnet in place. In the experimental runs, they recreated the same conditions with and without the support system in place, and confirmed that the confinement of the plasma was dramatically increased in the levitated mode, with the supports removed. With the magnet levitated, the central peak of plasma density developed within a few hundredths of a second, and closely resembled those observed in planetary magnetospheres (such as the magnetic fields surrounding Earth and Jupiter)." OK - now I have a picture in my head of what they are doing. This is 'effing genius!! This is also a reason the Polywell fusion design holds so much promise. The whole point of the design is not to interfere (as much as possible) with the plasma field. Polywell sends the fuel racing to the "core" of the magnetic field (generated by the torus) increasing the probability of a fusion reaction. Similar ideas, same goal. Last Edited by Project_Deimos on 01/30/2010 11:58 PM "There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/30/2010 11:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | for hard science. I love this stuff. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 858166But I wonder how much it matters. It takes a lot of power to levitate something that weighs a half-ton, so any fusion will have to generate that much more to pay for itself. We shall see, I hope. GREAT point- i wonder what the energy ratio is on the prototype at this point? The article implied that the mathematics seem to indicate it would be pretty good in theory, but they still need to reproduce the results in the lab. Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 12:01 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If I was a politican, I'd stick with Nuclear power until they discover something cheaper and better. Quoting: ZerocyberUntil then, we have keep on the look out for some kind of Cold Fusion or Geothermal (indirect) research to find the next thing. But anything that is safe and cheap will work fine. It just needs to be safe (So no coal, clean coal, etc) and cheap (so no wind mills or stupid solar plants). i don't have any answers, only lots of questions wrapped in more questions. I sincerely hope we do eventually find SOME solution!!!It is essential that we do, our drain on the worlds resources has to stop one way or the other. Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 12:03 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
urantian User ID: 878109 United States 01/31/2010 12:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | THE LAWS 1.Cold generates energy. Heat radiates energy. Cold multiples. It cannot divide for it is the fulcrum of the universe which must extend to multiply. Heat divides. It cannot multiply but can be multiplied. 2. Every action must be preceded and followed by its equal and opposite reaction. Heat is the reaction of cold. Heat could not come into being save for the compressive action of cold, nor could it repeat itself without losing itself in basic cold. 3. Cold is static, unchanging and unconditioned. It eternally lives. Cold light is the basic ONE THING of this universe. Heat waves are dynamic, forever changing and dually conditioned. They are eternally living and dying to simulate life. 4. Cold light is the omnipresent basis of universal intelligence and energy. Hot waves of light, which man calls matter, are a simulation of intelligence and energy. There is no intelligence or energy in matter. 5. Static cold and dynamic heat express their opposite energies at angles of ninety degrees from their axes of rotation. Cold retains its static, motionless condition along wave axes where motion ceases at points of maximum heat, while heat extends along equators to again expand as cold. This balanced interchanging completes the wave cycle. 6. Cold compresses. Cold multiplies cold to create heat. Heat expands to divide heat into cold. Varied pressures of heat constitute the octave color spectrum cycles and the octave chemical cycles of matter. Their varied wave lengths are the basis of your mathematics. 7. Long low waves of low potential and high frequencies constitute the invisible spectrum and low density gases while short high waves of high potential and low frequencies constitute the basis for high density. It is our hope that deep consideration of the consistency of these laws will point out to all workers in science the fact that the old laws have actually been but words to them and become a habit like deep-seated tradition, for they have not followed them in their laboratory practices. Let us leave this portion for I ask that you review until you memorize, the preceding laws for we shall be expanding on them. When we pen again we shall consider SOUND AND SILENCE. Thank you. I AM --- GERMAIN phoenix journals WORD OF GOD TODAY [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 876020 United States 01/31/2010 12:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 12:13 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The Z-Machine will finish first with fusion power.... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876020This Experiment seems to have it's roots in the Z-Machine! more fascinating reading !!! thank you!! link to Zmachine home with an terrific picture [link to zpinch.sandia.gov] Snipped from wiki [link to en.wikipedia.org] The Z machine fires a very powerful electrical discharge (several tens of millions of amperes for less than 100 nanoseconds) into an array of thin, parallel tungsten wires called a liner (pictured here). The high electrical current vaporizes the wires, which are transformed into a cylindrical plasma curtain. Simultaneously, the current density induces a powerful magnetic field and their combination creates Lorentz forces which radially compress the plasma into a z-pinch process. The imploding plasma produces a high temperature and an X-ray pulse which can create a shock wave in a target structure. The target structure is placed in a cavity inside the wires called a hohlraum. The powerful fluctuation in the magnetic field (an "electromagnetic pulse") also generates electric current in all of the metallic objects in the room (see picture at upper right). The vertical cylinder's axis is conventionally termed the z-axis, hence the name "Z machine". Originally designed to supply 50 terawatts of power in one fast pulse, technological advances resulted in an increased output of 290 terawatts, enough to study nuclear fusion. Z releases 80 times the world's electrical power output for about seventy nanoseconds; however, only a moderate amount of energy is consumed in each test (roughly twelve megajoules)—the efficiency from wall current to X-ray output is about 15%.[1][2] Marx generators are slowly charged with energy prior to firing. Sandia announced the fusing of deuterium in the Z machine on April 7, 2003.[3] This application could result in an efficient method to ignite a nuclear fusion reaction starting from a small capsule of deuterium. Unfortunately many technical difficulties—for instance the small quantity of deuterium that can be contained in the hohlraum and the practical impossibility of transferring the compressed capsule to a larger nuclear fuel reservoir—prevent the machine from being used this way for the moment. Besides being used as an X-ray generator, the Z machine propelled small plates at 34 kilometres a second, faster than the 30 kilometres per second that Earth travels in its orbit around the Sun, and three times Earth's escape velocity.[4] It also successfully created a special, hyperdense "hot ice" known as ice VII, by quickly compressing water to pressures of 70,000 to 120,000 atmospheres.[5] At the beginning of 2006, the Z machine produced plasmas with announced temperatures in excess of 2 billion kelvin (2 GK, 2×109 K) or 3.6 billion °F, even reaching a peak at 3.7 GK or 6.6 billion °F.[6][7][8] It was achieved in part by replacing the tungsten wires with thicker steel wires. This temperature, which enables a 10% to 15% efficiency in converting electrical energy to soft x-rays, was much higher than anticipated (3 to 4 times the kinetic energy of the incoming wires on axis). Thus far, it is currently the highest human-made temperature ever achieved according to The Guinness Book Of Records. The origin of this extra energy still remains unexplained, but it has been theorized that small-scale MHD turbulence and viscous damping would convert magnetic energy into thermal energy of the ions, which then would transfer their energy to the electrons through collisions.[7][8] Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 12:15 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "Levitation is crucial because the magnetic field used to confine the plasma would be disturbed by any objects in its way, such as any supports used to hold the magnet in place. In the experimental runs, they recreated the same conditions with and without the support system in place, and confirmed that the confinement of the plasma was dramatically increased in the levitated mode, with the supports removed. With the magnet levitated, the central peak of plasma density developed within a few hundredths of a second, and closely resembled those observed in planetary magnetospheres (such as the magnetic fields surrounding Earth and Jupiter)." Quoting: Project_DeimosOK - now I have a picture in my head of what they are doing. This is 'effing genius!! This is also a reason the Polywell fusion design holds so much promise. The whole point of the design is not to interfere (as much as possible) with the plasma field. Polywell sends the fuel racing to the "core" of the magnetic field (generated by the torus) increasing the probability of a fusion reaction. Similar ideas, same goal. It does seem to have some clear advantages. WOW!Looks like there is quite a bit of competition to the race for fusion... will be very interesting to see who will end up first, they said in the original article that Topamaks would most likely be the first gen, so is it really a race for second generation? Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 12:44 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 858166 United States 01/31/2010 12:17 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 12:46 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The Z-Machine will finish first with fusion power.... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 858166This Experiment seems to have it's roots in the Z-Machine! Interesting stuff. Those Sandia guys are worth watching. VERY!!!!! i agree Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 01:18 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | They have been toying with this for a while now. Containing the plasma in a magnetic field makes sense because of the incredible heat. Quoting: Thoughts Faux FodderThe next big leap will be creating matter that can tolerate a close proximity to this heat. We are talking millions of degrees in a sustained reaction (hasn't happened yet). That heat is the energy we can use. Can't use it without metals, ceramics, or something else to tranport that heat to a steam turbine. how far away do you think we are from being able to produce a material able to contain the field and heat? Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 01:19 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Project_Deimos User ID: 705825 United States 01/31/2010 01:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The next big leap will be creating matter that can tolerate a close proximity to this heat. We are talking millions of degrees in a sustained reaction (hasn't happened yet). That heat is the energy we can use. Can't use it without metals, ceramics, or something else to tranport that heat to a steam turbine. Quoting: Thoughts Faux Fodderhow far away do you think we are from being able to produce a material able to contain the field and heat? HOLY CRAP!! EMC-2 GOT 2 MILLION IN MAY '09 !!! [link to www.nope.com] How did I miss this???? Obama - this is the only thing you have done right to date - lol!! Last Edited by Project_Deimos on 01/31/2010 01:51 AM "There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." |
Project_Deimos User ID: 705825 United States 01/31/2010 01:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "A whole 2 million bucks. But thats to scale, EMC2 Fusion Corp built and tested WB-7 during 2008 under a 1.8 million dollar contract. During the winter of 2008-2009 some DOD funding paid for the building of a new Ion gun, and remounting the magnets in a way that increases efficiency. To be known as WB-7.1 And now in Obamas budget we see: pdf page 166 see Domestic Energy Supply/Distribution. Plasma Fusion (Polywell) Demonstrate fusion plasma confinement system for shore and shipboard applications; Joint OSD/USN project. 2.0 [million] The Navy wants Polywell as a replacement for shipboard fission nukes, 100,000 to a million times less radioactive, and at as little as 30 ft across for an entire plant (1200MW) using the PB-11 reaction. And in some circles, folks relish the idea of a compact 1200MW to power some laser or something, but thats a whole nother diary or 2 or 3." "There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know." |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 02:04 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The next big leap will be creating matter that can tolerate a close proximity to this heat. We are talking millions of degrees in a sustained reaction (hasn't happened yet). That heat is the energy we can use. Can't use it without metals, ceramics, or something else to tranport that heat to a steam turbine. Quoting: Project_Deimoshow far away do you think we are from being able to produce a material able to contain the field and heat? HOLY CRAP!! EMC-2 GOT 2 MILLION IN MAY '09 !!! [link to www.nope.com] How did I miss this???? Obama - this is the only thing you have done right to date - lol!! 2 Million isn't much as far as research costs run these days but it's a good start :-) , i hope it helps them advance and learn more ... i really would love to see this tech happen , it could change so much for us .... Do you think the Z-machine will somehow be able to avoid the heat issue? This all gets a little over my head after a certain point, i can grasp the basics but get lost in the details. Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 02:30 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 02:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 02:29 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 02:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | oops triple post !! Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 02:29 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 02:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | [link to rdanafox.blogspot.com] Quoting: Project_Deimos"A whole 2 million bucks. But thats to scale, EMC2 Fusion Corp built and tested WB-7 during 2008 under a 1.8 million dollar contract. During the winter of 2008-2009 some DOD funding paid for the building of a new Ion gun, and remounting the magnets in a way that increases efficiency. To be known as WB-7.1 And now in Obamas budget we see: pdf page 166 see Domestic Energy Supply/Distribution. Plasma Fusion (Polywell) Demonstrate fusion plasma confinement system for shore and shipboard applications; Joint OSD/USN project. 2.0 [million] The Navy wants Polywell as a replacement for shipboard fission nukes, 100,000 to a million times less radioactive, and at as little as 30 ft across for an entire plant (1200MW) using the PB-11 reaction. And in some circles, folks relish the idea of a compact 1200MW to power some laser or something, but thats a whole nother diary or 2 or 3." from that site :-) Thermonuclear fusion, maybe even Polywell fusion, will give us the solar system. Mars is 38 days, Titan in 76, using Dr Bussards QED fusion rocket theory. Last Edited by Thoughts Faux Fodder on 01/31/2010 02:27 AM Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
CuriouslyIncognito User ID: 872471 United States 01/31/2010 09:02 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | for hard science. I love this stuff. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 858166But I wonder how much it matters. It takes a lot of power to levitate something that weighs a half-ton, so any fusion will have to generate that much more to pay for itself. We shall see, I hope. Me too, but thoughts usually has to explain it to me !! LOL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "....So I told my Mom I was a prostitute because I didn't want her to know I was HERE doing This Shit !!! " by NANCY REED ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am a kind of paranoiac in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make me happy.- JD Salinger |
Thoughts Faux Fodder (OP) User ID: 876915 United States 01/31/2010 01:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | for hard science. I love this stuff. Quoting: CuriouslyIncognitoMe too, but thoughts usually has to explain it to me !! LOL just as you explain many other things to me!!! This sort of science gets over MY head quickly, i get lost in the details, but it still fascinates me and makes me hopeful that we actually one day get to the stars ( not to mention the clean renewable energy for us here on earth!!) Hope is the thing with feathers That perches in the soul, And sings the tune--without the words, And never stops at all.... Emily Dickinson |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 531687 United States 03/10/2010 09:47 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |