The Gospel of Mark is mysteriously synchronized with the Book of Revelation | |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 70851936 United States 04/20/2016 09:48 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In particular, Mark 9 is very insightful (and surprising) about the role of scribes and the relative peace during the millennial reign (Rev 20). Quoting: Greg 1229765 There will be peace during the millennial reign because the earth will be empty except the devil and his angels. The righteous are in heaven with Christ. Many wolves have taught their flock of some unbiblical 1000 year reign on earth with Christ. This is simply not correct. [link to www.remnantofgod.org] A brief study on the matter. |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 10:01 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. |
bigD111 User ID: 65945302 United States 04/20/2016 10:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. Excellent! It would be great to have that ability. The bible is so intricately written that I am not surprised. deplorably republican |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 10:07 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. There is ample evidence that the NT was written in Greek, even though Jesus spoke Aramaic. I haven't seen convincing evidence that the originals were in Aramaic. In fact, it's more probable that later Aramaic texts were translated from the Greek and made to "synchronize", rather than it being mysterious. Just my 2 cents. |
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Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 10:12 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In particular, Mark 9 is very insightful (and surprising) about the role of scribes and the relative peace during the millennial reign (Rev 20). Quoting: Greg 1229765 There will be peace during the millennial reign because the earth will be empty except the devil and his angels. The righteous are in heaven with Christ. Many wolves have taught their flock of some unbiblical 1000 year reign on earth with Christ. This is simply not correct. [link to www.remnantofgod.org] A brief study on the matter. Hmmm. "Blessed are the humble, for they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5 I don't think the Millennial Reign is 100% filled with peace and serenity. It is probably just like a sabbath on earth -- some people enjoy sabbath in mostly peace, others not so much. According to the Book of Isaiah this will be a time of governance from Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4), sobering up from the weary of the tribulation (Isaiah 51:17-23), turning some parched areas into gardens (Isa. 51:3); and a time where the earth wears out like old clothes (Isa. 51:6). But the Book of Revelation is mostly silent on this time period, except the end of it -- after Satan‘s release from the abyss (Rev. 20:7) he deceives many in order to congregate them for the Gog and Magog war, where they surround the holy city of Jerusalem. The Father then sends fire down from the heavens to consume all the raging armies. (Rev. 20:8-9). So, we at least know there will be raging armies and animosity against Jerusalem -- I figure that sort of thing doesn't happen overnight, it probably builds up during the Millennium. Without the aid of the Book of Revelation, it can be difficult to tell the difference between pre-Millennium (seals) and post-Millennium (Gog and Magog war). See e.g., Ezek. 7:19, Ezek. 38:18-20, Zep. 1:15. Again, according to the Book of Isaiah 2:1-4, governance and law will issue from "Zion" and "Jerusalem" in the Millennial Reign. Per Revelation 20:4-6, I would venture the Millennium is ruled from heaven by resurrected priests who serve with the Messiah in heaven, not on earth. People can live their entire life clueless that there is an entire heavenly administration happening in heaven concurrently with their lives, governing the rise and fall of men on earth. I expect that phenomenon to continue in the Millennial Reign (especially as distant generations feel less connected to the great tribulation). Revelation 20:4-6, "And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship the beast, neither its image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for one thousand years; And this is the first resurrection. Blessed and set apart is he, whoever has death. In the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him 1000 years." |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 72062479 Canada 04/20/2016 10:14 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. There is ample evidence that the NT was written in Greek, even though Jesus spoke Aramaic. I haven't seen convincing evidence that the originals were in Aramaic. In fact, it's more probable that later Aramaic texts were translated from the Greek and made to "synchronize", rather than it being mysterious. Just my 2 cents. Jesus spent his early childhood in Egypt where the majority of Jews spoke Greek. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 10:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. There is ample evidence that the NT was written in Greek, even though Jesus spoke Aramaic. I haven't seen convincing evidence that the originals were in Aramaic. In fact, it's more probable that later Aramaic texts were translated from the Greek and made to "synchronize", rather than it being mysterious. Just my 2 cents. Jesus spent his early childhood in Egypt where the majority of Jews spoke Greek. But Jesus was never in Egypt after the age of about two. His parents fled there when warned by an angel that Herod was going to hunt him down to kill him, and they returned to Israel after he died. [link to www.biblesprout.com] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 72058772 United States 04/20/2016 10:21 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Keep studying! :) There is no 'thousand' year millennium awaiting. It is two thousand or more. 'Thousand' is a noun unless preceded by a determiner. In Revelation 20:6, it says 'a thousand'. 'A' is not a definite article and chilia, the word for thousand is plural. We are in this 2,000 year period now! It will culminate shortly after the finalization of the latest week of Daniels 70 weeks. After which, Jesus will return at the last trump and receive His elect unto Himself and time shall be no more! [link to graceandtruth.net] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 10:23 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Keep studying! :) Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72058772 There is no 'thousand' year millennium awaiting. It is two thousand or more. 'Thousand' is a noun unless preceded by a determiner. In Revelation 20:6, it says 'a thousand'. 'A' is not a definite article and chilia, the word for thousand is plural. It says THE thousand years (TA chilia ete). |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 10:24 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. There is ample evidence that the NT was written in Greek, even though Jesus spoke Aramaic. I haven't seen convincing evidence that the originals were in Aramaic. In fact, it's more probable that later Aramaic texts were translated from the Greek and made to "synchronize", rather than it being mysterious. Just my 2 cents. I can appreciate that point. The evidence to the contrary though is abundant -- countless scholars have actually been forced to admit that the Aramaic gospel of Matthew is the best evidence of Yahshua’s words because of what scholars call polysemy. This is when multiple Greek texts have different translations that all come from the same Aramaic word. For example, suppose that three men in China are translating an old book. Each translator writes his own Chinese translation where we find the following discrepancies: Translator 1: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying blemish.” Translator 2: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying small burrowing animal.” Translator 3: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying spy.” We can easily ascertain that the original language of that document was English, because the word “mole” in English matches all three Chinese translations. This is what scholars have found with Aramaic and Greek. Multiple Greek translations have discrepancies, but they all trace back to a single Aramaic word. The Greek scholar David Bauscher has provided many of the findings in this area: [link to aramaicnt.com] Here is an example from David Bauscher regarding the Greek variance in Revelation 14:20: “Greek mss. have “a thousand, six hundred stadia”; the Greek ms. Aleph (a[/], 4th cent.) has “a thousand two hundred”, as does the Philoxenian Syriac Version (early 6th cent.)… If the Aramaic is the original, how did most Greek mss. get 600 instead of 200? Ah, but the Aramaic wmaThyn is 600 and 200! How? The Aramaic language uses letters for numbers as well as words. wmaThyn can mean “and two hundred” (which it most likely does) or it can be interpreted as “(hundreds) maThyn (six) w since w – (waw) is also used for the number six. The Greek interpretation may have been influenced by the Hebrew form for “hundreds” – mawTh; The correct Aramaic form would be maa. The more accurate use of this method would actually give – “xix –two hundreds” which is exactly what the Sinaiticus has! (Greek does not have a six –two hundreds). So the 4th Century Greek Sinaiticus bears witness to the Aramaic text of Revelation (The only Greek ms. With 1200 stadia in this place) as does The Majority Greek Text with its subtle but sloppy use of Gematria to obtain 1600 stadia.” There are literally thousands of examples to show Aramaic is the original for the gospel and Revelation :) |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 10:41 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I actually discovered this myself earlier this year while reading the books at home. I do read the ancient script of Aramaic (the language of Jesus spoken in Israel circa 30AD), so that allows me to see connections that are simply lost to others in translation. There is ample evidence that the NT was written in Greek, even though Jesus spoke Aramaic. I haven't seen convincing evidence that the originals were in Aramaic. In fact, it's more probable that later Aramaic texts were translated from the Greek and made to "synchronize", rather than it being mysterious. Just my 2 cents. I can appreciate that point. The evidence to the contrary though is abundant -- countless scholars have actually been forced to admit that the Aramaic gospel of Matthew is the best evidence of Yahshua’s words because of what scholars call polysemy. This is when multiple Greek texts have different translations that all come from the same Aramaic word. For example, suppose that three men in China are translating an old book. Each translator writes his own Chinese translation where we find the following discrepancies: Translator 1: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying blemish.” Translator 2: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying small burrowing animal.” Translator 3: “Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying spy.” We can easily ascertain that the original language of that document was English, because the word “mole” in English matches all three Chinese translations. This is what scholars have found with Aramaic and Greek. Multiple Greek translations have discrepancies, but they all trace back to a single Aramaic word. The Greek scholar David Bauscher has provided many of the findings in this area: [link to aramaicnt.com] Here is an example from David Bauscher regarding the Greek variance in Revelation 14:20: “Greek mss. have “a thousand, six hundred stadia”; the Greek ms. Aleph (a[/], 4th cent.) has “a thousand two hundred”, as does the Philoxenian Syriac Version (early 6th cent.)… If the Aramaic is the original, how did most Greek mss. get 600 instead of 200? Ah, but the Aramaic wmaThyn is 600 and 200! How? The Aramaic language uses letters for numbers as well as words. wmaThyn can mean “and two hundred” (which it most likely does) or it can be interpreted as “(hundreds) maThyn (six) w since w – (waw) is also used for the number six. The Greek interpretation may have been influenced by the Hebrew form for “hundreds” – mawTh; The correct Aramaic form would be maa. The more accurate use of this method would actually give – “xix –two hundreds” which is exactly what the Sinaiticus has! (Greek does not have a six –two hundreds). So the 4th Century Greek Sinaiticus bears witness to the Aramaic text of Revelation (The only Greek ms. With 1200 stadia in this place) as does The Majority Greek Text with its subtle but sloppy use of Gematria to obtain 1600 stadia.” There are literally thousands of examples to show Aramaic is the original for the gospel and Revelation :) However, see [link to aramaicnt.org] for a counter-argument: "In other words the Peshitta, at the earliest, represents fourth century Syriac. It cannot be from the first or second centuries AD as some proponents claim." |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 10:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Keep studying! :) Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72058772 There is no 'thousand' year millennium awaiting. It is two thousand or more. 'Thousand' is a noun unless preceded by a determiner. In Revelation 20:6, it says 'a thousand'. 'A' is not a definite article and chilia, the word for thousand is plural. It says THE thousand years (TA chilia ete). Yeah, it's singular as it reads 'alp Shnyn'. If this were meant to be plural, the expression would be 'alpyn Shnyn'. See e.g., Matthew 15:38 'alpyn' ("thousands"). Or if you wanted to say "two thousand" it would be "Thryn alpyn". So yeah, Revelation 20:6 is clear in the literal text: "one thousand years" |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 19833765 United States 04/20/2016 11:07 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP, your post is well written and the data compiled is worthy. Thank you so much. I have already spread its information to others of like mind & faith. Pray for me, too. I am a sinner but certainly a Strong Believer as well. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 12863960 United States 04/20/2016 11:07 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70851936 United States 04/20/2016 11:41 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In particular, Mark 9 is very insightful (and surprising) about the role of scribes and the relative peace during the millennial reign (Rev 20). Quoting: Greg 1229765 There will be peace during the millennial reign because the earth will be empty except the devil and his angels. The righteous are in heaven with Christ. Many wolves have taught their flock of some unbiblical 1000 year reign on earth with Christ. This is simply not correct. [link to www.remnantofgod.org] A brief study on the matter. Hmmm. "Blessed are the humble, for they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5 I don't think the Millennial Reign is 100% filled with peace and serenity. It is probably just like a sabbath on earth -- some people enjoy sabbath in mostly peace, others not so much. According to the Book of Isaiah this will be a time of governance from Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4), sobering up from the weary of the tribulation (Isaiah 51:17-23), turning some parched areas into gardens (Isa. 51:3); and a time where the earth wears out like old clothes (Isa. 51:6). But the Book of Revelation is mostly silent on this time period, except the end of it -- after Satan‘s release from the abyss (Rev. 20:7) he deceives many in order to congregate them for the Gog and Magog war, where they surround the holy city of Jerusalem. The Father then sends fire down from the heavens to consume all the raging armies. (Rev. 20:8-9). So, we at least know there will be raging armies and animosity against Jerusalem -- I figure that sort of thing doesn't happen overnight, it probably builds up during the Millennium. Without the aid of the Book of Revelation, it can be difficult to tell the difference between pre-Millennium (seals) and post-Millennium (Gog and Magog war). See e.g., Ezek. 7:19, Ezek. 38:18-20, Zep. 1:15. Again, according to the Book of Isaiah 2:1-4, governance and law will issue from "Zion" and "Jerusalem" in the Millennial Reign. Per Revelation 20:4-6, I would venture the Millennium is ruled from heaven by resurrected priests who serve with the Messiah in heaven, not on earth. People can live their entire life clueless that there is an entire heavenly administration happening in heaven concurrently with their lives, governing the rise and fall of men on earth. I expect that phenomenon to continue in the Millennial Reign (especially as distant generations feel less connected to the great tribulation). Revelation 20:4-6, "And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship the beast, neither its image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for one thousand years; And this is the first resurrection. Blessed and set apart is he, whoever has death. In the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him 1000 years." Could have just read the link. Truth is truth. |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 12:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Greg 1229765 There are literally thousands of examples to show Aramaic is the original for the gospel and Revelation :) However, see [link to aramaicnt.org] for a counter-argument: "In other words the Peshitta, at the earliest, represents fourth century Syriac. It cannot be from the first or second centuries AD as some proponents claim." Actually, my finding here (that the Gospel of Mark is synchronized with the Book of Revelation) does not depend on dialectical nuances (that your link - Caruso - focuses upon) such as a third person imperfect prefix /n-/ or /y-/. I read Aramaic so I understand these details thoroughly. Incidentally, native Aramaic speakers and other Aramaic scholars have reviewed Caruso's work and many find it lacking because it is built on assumptions. See e.g., [link to www.peshitta.org] In a nutshell, it appears Caruso's work is based on his own assumption that he is able to reconstruct various Israeli dialects (i.e., Galilean) from select texts and inscriptions. And then on those assumptions he postulates that the Peshitta cannot be an original text because it varies very slightly from his own hypothetical reconstructions. To analogize, it like he is saying the difference in the spelling "donut" and "doughnut" will tell us whether the writer was more likely from San Francisco or Berkeley -- it's mostly just conjecture. In any case, I have enjoyed researching Caruso's subtle grammatical points over the years because they assist my own work. Bottom line: even if Caruso were correct in one of his theories, the Peshitta would still be the best written evidence on earth of the actual literal words of the Messiah. Accordingly, the Peshitta is important to the Father and to us. Again, my finding here is that the Gospel of Mark is synchronized with the Book of Revelation -- and that finding does not depend on dialectical nuances from one Aramaic-speaking territory to another in the first century AD. Hope this explanation has been helpful. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 12:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Greg 1229765 There are literally thousands of examples to show Aramaic is the original for the gospel and Revelation :) However, see [link to aramaicnt.org] for a counter-argument: "In other words the Peshitta, at the earliest, represents fourth century Syriac. It cannot be from the first or second centuries AD as some proponents claim." Actually, my finding here (that the Gospel of Mark is synchronized with the Book of Revelation) does not depend on dialectical nuances (that your link - Caruso - focuses upon) such as a third person imperfect prefix /n-/ or /y-/. I read Aramaic so I understand these details thoroughly. Incidentally, native Aramaic speakers and other Aramaic scholars have reviewed Caruso's work and many find it lacking because it is built on assumptions. See e.g., [link to www.peshitta.org] In a nutshell, it appears Caruso's work is based on his own assumption that he is able to reconstruct various Israeli dialects (i.e., Galilean) from select texts and inscriptions. And then on those assumptions he postulates that the Peshitta cannot be an original text because it varies very slightly from his own hypothetical reconstructions. To analogize, it like he is saying the difference in the spelling "donut" and "doughnut" will tell us whether the writer was more likely from San Francisco or Berkeley -- it's mostly just conjecture. In any case, I have enjoyed researching Caruso's subtle grammatical points over the years because they assist my own work. Bottom line: even if Caruso were correct in one of his theories, the Peshitta would still be the best written evidence on earth of the actual literal words of the Messiah. Accordingly, the Peshitta is important to the Father and to us. Again, my finding here is that the Gospel of Mark is synchronized with the Book of Revelation -- and that finding does not depend on dialectical nuances from one Aramaic-speaking territory to another in the first century AD. Hope this explanation has been helpful. I appreciate your efforts, but the body of scholarship for Greek primacy still heavily outweighs Aramaic, from what I've read. At any rate, the Gospel is not impacted. |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 01:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Darth Snarkiest I appreciate your efforts, but the body of scholarship for Greek primacy still heavily outweighs Aramaic, from what I've read. At any rate, the Gospel is not impacted. Yes, but in matters of religion it is often the majority position that is the most suspicious. In any case, I figure that if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be. For example, the first words of Revelation would be “This book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua’s apostle John”. And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished Hebrew right in the big blue sky for all to obey. But no, that’s not our world. Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve. In our world, a scholar can make a case for Revelation in Greek if he wants, or even Egyptian (seriously, it’s be done). For example, with every one point of wordplay evidence you find two of conjecture. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 400-page book claiming that Satan himself is the author! Ultimately it comes down to faith. And in matters of faith that get reduced to public forums, tradition frequently receives the spotlight. But in the meantime, rest assured, there is both logic and evidence behind the ancient tradition, and record, of the Peshitta as the one Aramaic original… I believe Revelation comes from the Father, through Yahshua, and should be recognized first in that primary context. Whatever Babylonian language (Aramaic, Greek) in which the message was first written to us Babylonians would just be sub-context. The Father can encode more meaning into the eye of a needle (in any language and at any time) than Intel can squeeze into a sewing machine factory - so Babylonian language primacy is academic. The real primacy is the language of the heart. For example, imagine there were seven men who read the admonition to Pergamus. Four of them read it in Greek and three in Aramaic. Five of these men heard the message in their hearts and repented. Now, who worked the Father’s will? The answer reveals we all share the same definition of primacy. |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 01:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Derek User ID: 1372894 United States 04/20/2016 01:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70238440 United States 04/20/2016 01:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Darth Snarkiest I appreciate your efforts, but the body of scholarship for Greek primacy still heavily outweighs Aramaic, from what I've read. At any rate, the Gospel is not impacted. Yes, but in matters of religion it is often the majority position that is the most suspicious. In any case, I figure that if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be. For example, the first words of Revelation would be “This book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua’s apostle John”. And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished Hebrew right in the big blue sky for all to obey. But no, that’s not our world. Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve. In our world, a scholar can make a case for Revelation in Greek if he wants, or even Egyptian (seriously, it’s be done). For example, with every one point of wordplay evidence you find two of conjecture. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 400-page book claiming that Satan himself is the author! Ultimately it comes down to faith. And in matters of faith that get reduced to public forums, tradition frequently receives the spotlight. But in the meantime, rest assured, there is both logic and evidence behind the ancient tradition, and record, of the Peshitta as the one Aramaic original… I believe Revelation comes from the Father, through Yahshua, and should be recognized first in that primary context. Whatever Babylonian language (Aramaic, Greek) in which the message was first written to us Babylonians would just be sub-context. The Father can encode more meaning into the eye of a needle (in any language and at any time) than Intel can squeeze into a sewing machine factory - so Babylonian language primacy is academic. The real primacy is the language of the heart. For example, imagine there were seven men who read the admonition to Pergamus. Four of them read it in Greek and three in Aramaic. Five of these men heard the message in their hearts and repented. Now, who worked the Father’s will? The answer reveals we all share the same definition of primacy. I can agree with majorities often being wrong, and sometimes deliberately so. You can see the results of my efforts to go over the Greek NT with a fine-toothed comb at [link to bible.fether.net] , since I began finding or being shown one deliberate obfuscation after another in English translations. There is a clear agenda to hide certain things, largely having to do with justifying hierarchical religion and male rule over female. But when it come to manuscript study rather than interpretation and translation, there are many more eyes on the text than Christians and Jews. This is a very different environment. Also agree that Jesus Himself established the precedent that the mechanics of the message take a back seat to the spirit of the message, since he quoted from the LXX, as did all the NT writers when referencing the OT. And the very existence and acceptance of that Greek text is another factor in motivation for writing the NT also in Greek. In fact, the Jews attempted to make their own Greek OT to keep the Christians from using the real one to prove Jesus was Messiah. So given that we agree on so much, what is the motivation for promoting Aramaic primacy? What pivotal and critical teachings are missing from the Greek text? |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 02:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nothing mysterious about it. It is as false as the rest of the new testament. Quoting: Derek 1372894 Respectfully, I think your statement is too simplistic. As thinkers and builders, whether we're looking at the spiritual experiences of billions of people, or the discovery of quantum mechanics, it is prudent to be careful students and diligent searcers. In science, this is how inventions are born. For if we are too easily dismissive of connections between phenomena, we miss things. It's the proverbial baby and bathwater. Sure, you can write a book about Nikola Tesla energy conspiracies (or the Catholic church conspiracies), but at the end of the day please tell me 'what did you build'. What did you accomplish? Did you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Or did you build a free energy machine? Did you not see the baby in the bathwater? Did you not see the quantum in the atom? Did you not see the golden ratio right before you in your own hand? John 3:8, "The Spirit breathes where he will, and you hear his voice, but you do not know from where he comes and where he goes; thus is everyone who is born from The Spirit.” Mystery is inherent to the bible, Derek. "The honor of God is to hide a thing, And the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 70491268 United States 04/20/2016 02:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The whole bible fits together. I will tell you or anyone else reading this one key piece of info that can unlock the entire biblical story. Our entire physical reality that we currently exist in is described as the "sea of glass" , "firmament", "great crystal" or sometimes just "sea". With just this knowledge, you can unlock many otherwise difficult meanings in the bible. Carry on. |
Asher User ID: 68795865 United States 04/20/2016 02:35 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Darth Snarkiest I appreciate your efforts, but the body of scholarship for Greek primacy still heavily outweighs Aramaic, from what I've read. At any rate, the Gospel is not impacted. Yes, but in matters of religion it is often the majority position that is the most suspicious. In any case, I figure that if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be. For example, the first words of Revelation would be “This book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua’s apostle John”. And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished Hebrew right in the big blue sky for all to obey. But no, that’s not our world. Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve. In our world, a scholar can make a case for Revelation in Greek if he wants, or even Egyptian (seriously, it’s be done). For example, with every one point of wordplay evidence you find two of conjecture. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 400-page book claiming that Satan himself is the author! Ultimately it comes down to faith. And in matters of faith that get reduced to public forums, tradition frequently receives the spotlight. But in the meantime, rest assured, there is both logic and evidence behind the ancient tradition, and record, of the Peshitta as the one Aramaic original… I believe Revelation comes from the Father, through Yahshua, and should be recognized first in that primary context. Whatever Babylonian language (Aramaic, Greek) in which the message was first written to us Babylonians would just be sub-context. The Father can encode more meaning into the eye of a needle (in any language and at any time) than Intel can squeeze into a sewing machine factory - so Babylonian language primacy is academic. The real primacy is the language of the heart. For example, imagine there were seven men who read the admonition to Pergamus. Four of them read it in Greek and three in Aramaic. Five of these men heard the message in their hearts and repented. Now, who worked the Father’s will? The answer reveals we all share the same definition of primacy. I can agree with majorities often being wrong, and sometimes deliberately so. You can see the results of my efforts to go over the Greek NT with a fine-toothed comb at [link to bible.fether.net] , since I began finding or being shown one deliberate obfuscation after another in English translations. There is a clear agenda to hide certain things, largely having to do with justifying hierarchical religion and male rule over female. But when it come to manuscript study rather than interpretation and translation, there are many more eyes on the text than Christians and Jews. This is a very different environment. Also agree that Jesus Himself established the precedent that the mechanics of the message take a back seat to the spirit of the message, since he quoted from the LXX, as did all the NT writers when referencing the OT. And the very existence and acceptance of that Greek text is another factor in motivation for writing the NT also in Greek. In fact, the Jews attempted to make their own Greek OT to keep the Christians from using the real one to prove Jesus was Messiah. So given that we agree on so much, what is the motivation for promoting Aramaic primacy? What pivotal and critical teachings are missing from the Greek text? What part of Greek is not the original text, do you not understand? Josephus and others are evidence the Jews did not know Greek besides a select few. אשר |
Asher User ID: 68795865 United States 04/20/2016 02:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The entire bible is synchronized.. The OT mirrors the NT. Prophecies are written in multiple books with different prospectives. This is not a shocker to one who reads the whole book. But only to the NT only Christians and the people blinded to not see Christ. אשר |
Greg (OP) User ID: 1229765 United States 04/20/2016 03:00 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... rest assured, there is both logic and evidence behind the ancient tradition, and record, of the Peshitta as the one Aramaic original… Quoting: Greg 1229765 ... The real primacy is the language of the heart. ... ... So given that we agree on so much, what is the motivation for promoting Aramaic primacy? What pivotal and critical teachings are missing from the Greek text? The literal text is the anchor for sound doctrine. For example, I disagree with what you wrote on your website as you write from a non-literal interpretation, "So since everyone agrees that life is endless, then we have no choice but to say that punishment is also endless. And though it is indeed the fire that is so described, it is also the punishment." In reality, the literal text (in both Aramaic and Greek), states that punishment is finite. So I disagree with your conclusions and your English translation. Here is my evidence in support: [link to www.logicalhierarchy.com] Moreover, I think your "majority" doctrine of everlasting torment is evil. Fortunately, the literal bible text is not evil. It says that we navigate from world/age to world/age. Mark 10:30 is the best evidence for scholars to prove this point (as we read the finite article in both Aramaic and Greek). Indeed, all punishment is finite in the literal bible text. Moreover, it is often described as incredibly quick, like grass that burns up instantly in a flame. Again, see this link for scriptural citations [link to www.logicalhierarchy.com] The bible makes clear that only the Father (and those who remain in Him) will live continually, from world/age to worlds/ages and beyond. Psalm 102:25-27 – “You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall endure. All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended.” Malachi 4:1, “Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them.” It was the Pharisees and Greek mystics, and later the Latin speaking Church, that taught that EVERYTHING exists forever. Fortunately, the literal text of the ancient bible makes it clear (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic all agree) that the Father can and will destroy anything He desires, even a soul. Matthew 10:28. Every promise of life in the literal text is very specific/literal: John 10:28 -- “And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age.” This language is a very specific promise about the world/age to come. If the Messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead say (“they will not perish ever”). John 11:25, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live. And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die.” Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come. The indefinite form of the word is used (“a world/age”) rather than the definite form (“this world/age”). Isaiah 65:17-20, “For behold, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart…. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.” Ezekiel 18:20, “The soul who sins shall die.” Matthew 10:28, “And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: and awe of him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning.” Matthew 13:42, “The Son of Man will send his angels and they will pick out from his kingdom all the stumbling blocks and all the servants of wickedness and they will throw them into the furnace of fire. In that place will be crying and gnashing of teeth.” Notice the phrase “there” (or “in that place”). If the torment were everlasting in space and time, this would be have been an excellent opportunity to say that. Instead, the literal text refers to a specific place. Hell is limited in both space and time. Space and time are connected in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and science. In the Latin languages they become divorced. In Revelation, the longest punishment described is “a world of ages”. As the bible itself shows throughout its text, ages and worlds are by definition finite in space and time. The literal text of the bible could have easily said ‘tormented for time that does not end’ or ‘time that cannot end’, but it does not say that. Moreover, Rev 14:11 even describes “a world of ages” in relation to days and nights. These are terms that require planetary bodies in motion, and definitely do not fit the meaning of “eternal” or everlasting. Rev 14:11, “And the smoke of their torments rises to a world of ages, and they do not have a breath, daily or nightly, those who worshipped the beast and its image and took the mark of its name.” Another precedent for finite immortality is Revelation 9:6 where people who took the mark of the beast are tormented for exactly five months. The verse is specifically qualified by days (“in those days”) . So here is another precedent where a creature cannot die but that immortality is limited to a certain number of “days”. After those days are over, so is that creature’s life. Note also the similar language in Isaiah 34:9-10. In this passage Isaiah says the fire consuming Edom shall burn “night and day” and “shall not be quenched.” Most translations say the smoke “shall go up forever”. The common translations are erroneous. Rather, the literal text says that the smoke rises “from generation to generation”. And in any case, we can plainly observe that the fire and smoke of Edom’s judgment is not still rising today. |