***VITAL FIRST AMENDMENT COURT CASE HAPPENING NOW - THIS TRIAL WILL CHANGE THE WORLD*** | |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/24/2009 08:57 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here is Part 2 of the injunction: IV Younger Abstention Doctrine as Applied to Krantz and Seago Although Krantz and Seago have a state case pending, they are not able to raise their federal claims through the state case. Krantz and Seago assert that the defendants are acting in excess of the state court orders by requiring them to leave their church and change their religious views, vaccinating their children contrary to Arkansas law, and instituting a "deprogramming" plan aimed at driving a wedge between parent and child. These harms are irreparable - and cannot be compensated by a monetary award. Additionally, as will be explained in further detail later in this brief, the defendants are requiring plaintiffs Krantz and Seago to forego their state appellate remedies and agree with the department that membership in their church constitutes abuse before they may regain custody of their children. While asserting that plaintiffs can raise their claims in state court, they openly state that if they do, they cannot regain custody of their children.1 Further plaintiffs Krantz and Seago seek to enjoin the future pre-hearing removal of their children. A favorable disposition of the state case would not prevent the state from carrying out it's routine practice of removing children without court orders2, nor would it prevent them from instituting yet another investigation, or series of investigations, motivated by association with their church. If defendants are not enjoined from future harassment of Krantz and Seago because of their association with the church and their beliefs,; they are free to remove their children without a court order in the future and to haul them to state court repeatedly with essentially the same allegations. By the defendants' own admission in their brief, Krantz and Seago will not be considered to have "corrected the abusive environment" unless they sever all ties with the church.3 V the defendants' unconstitutional policies and practices Defendants, while asserting that they have no routine policy or practice of violating Constitutional rights, confirm such policy in their Brief in Opposition as follows: 1. "Moreover, in these cases, as in every other child maltreatment case, the parents are required to acknowledge that the adjudicated abuse and neglect occurred, and how it occurred, to ensure they are equipped to protect their children from similar maltreatment in the future."4 2. "In the vast majority of cases where children are brought into the foster care system, the 72-hour hold is the initiating action by the Department."5 3. "Parents committed to reunification with their children are frequently required to take drastic steps to overhaul their lives, and they are frequently required to choose to give up certain constitutionally protected interests - such as free association, family unity, property, or even liberty - and to place the best interests of their children as paramount."6 4. Defendants recognize that the individual plaintiffs are not required to acquiesce to the state court's findings of fact, and may appeal from the same. However, they are not permitted to regain custody of their children while resisting court orders and refusing to participate in the case plan, as long as those court orders upon which the case plan is based are valid."7 The above statements whole-heartedly prove a routine policy and practice of violating parents' Constitutional rights with flagrant disregard. They openly hold custody of a child over parents' heads as a means of coercing them into foregoing certain rights and to deter the use of the state court appeals process. They state, without any hesitation whatsoever, that if a parent chooses to appeal, they may not regain custody of their child during the pendency of that appeal, knowing this process could take up to a year or longer. This position is in direct contrast to federal and state law. Reunification is supposed to be based upon the current safety of the child to return home; not upon an unconditional agreement with the department's findings. Battishill v. Arkansas Dept. of Human Services, (Not Reported in S.W.3d, 2004, Ark.App.,2004), B.H. v. Arkanasas Dept. of Human Services, (Not Reported in S.W.2d, 1998, Ark.App.,1998). It is feasible and proper for children to be returned home under safe conditions even while parents continue to deny abuse and make proper use of the state court appeals system. As in the cases of Krantz and Seago, both have signed agreements with Defendant's stating that they will not allow their children to be married underage nor to be disciplined by other church members in any fashion. At the same time, they properly deny that this has ever occurred, and have appealed the state court findings. Although Krantz and Seago have availed themselves of every available state remedy; the Defendants mercilessly hold the custody of their children over their heads because they have appealed and refuse to admit an untruth. Defendants further admit that pre-hearing removals are done in the "vast majority" of the cases. This policy and practice flies in the face of parents' Constitutionally protected familial interests in association with their children. It is well established that any removal of a child without a court order should only be done in exigent circumstances. Santosky v. Kramer, 455 U.S. 745, 102 S.Ct. 1388 (1982). Exigent circumstances are present only when delaying to seek a court order would cause irreparable harm. Hurlman v. Rice, 927 F.2d 74 (2nd Cir. 1991), Good v. Dauphin County Social Servies, 891 F.2d 1087 (3rd Cir. 1989), Wallis v. Spencer, 196 F.3d 805 (9th Cir. 1999). However, Defendant's spell out their flagrant disregard for this requirement and openly state they frequently remove children without court orders; and in fact, seem to convey surprise that anyone would object to this practice. Perhaps most shocking about the Defendants' routine policy and practice is their statement that parents are "frequently required" by the Department "to give up constitutionally protected rights" in order to prove that they are suitable parents! Rather than looking towards ways of ensuring safety while respecting rights, they require parents to give up those rights as proof that they will be good parents. Specifically, Defendants openly require these plaintiffs to give up their Constitutionally protected right to raise their children they way they see fit and within the religion they have chosen for themselves and their children. They can only prove that they are good parents by giving up that "family unity" and choosing a more appropriate church that meets the department's approval. Further, they state that they "frequently require" parents to give up these rights - thus proving the policy and practice of routinely violating civil rights. VI Standing of Church and Irreparable Harm Defendants interestingly assert that the Church would have standing to intervene in the state case; then take a position of direct contrast by asserting that they do not have standing to pursue an injunction. All that is required to show standing of the church is the showing of an injury to itself if the injunction is not granted. Heartland Academy Community Church v. Waddle, 335 F.3d 684 (C.A.8.Mo 2003). The church is diminished due to the harassment by the state. Defendants admit over and over throughout their brief that they do require parents to sever ties with the church in order to regain custody of their children. They openly require parents to agree with the state court findings and require them to separate themselves from the church under the guise of "correcting the abusive environment." That the defendants are requiring parents to separate themselves from the church is undisputed. They go so far as to justify the withholding of Bible verses from their children in foster care by saying they are damaging to the child. This is a clear indication of defendants' expectation that parents leave the church before regaining custody of their children. If parents remained in the church, the same Bible would be used for sermons and teachings, and verses would be distributed orally or in writing to the children. The defendants maintain that portions of the Bible are abusive - thus only by leaving the church could parents prove to Defendant's that their children will be safe in the future. The defendants' illegal position that portions of the Bible are abusive puts parents in the position of choosing between their children and the church. Parents could choose their children and leave the church even though this goes against their strong beliefs. Thus the church is diminished and suffers loss of not only current members but future members. A parent would be hard pressed to join this church if it meant they would be immediately subject to a child abuse investigation and possible loss of their children. Such a substantial loss of membership will result in the ultimate shutdown of the church which is the state's true goal. Defendants take the position that harm to the church must be monetary and since the works of the church are all voluntary, there is no loss. That would mean that no non-profit organization could ever show irreparable harm by the illegal actions of the state because they don't generate a profit; and the state would have free reign to trample their Constitutional rights. To the contrary, monetary loss alone does not constitute irreparable harm because irreparable means that the harm cannot be compensated with money damages. Corning Sav. and Loan Ass'n v. Federal Home Loan Bank Bd., 562 F.Supp. 279 (E.D.Ark.W.Div. 1983), Potter v. City of Tontitown, 264 S.W.3d 473 (Ark. 2007). The defendants argue that the church has no right to the donations and charities of others; however the church has a right to associate and then seek members and contributions. The state's actions in removing children from all parents in the church prevents the church from keeping its current members and from seeking new members, thereby effecting its opportunities to seek contributions. The Church has standing of their own capacity to protect their own interests as well as representative standing to represent the interest of their members. In the case of Heartland Academy Community Church v. Waddle, 335 F. 3d 684 [CA. 8, 2003] the court found the Church had standing due to the immediate shutdown of the facility with the allegation that the relief sought would prevent the harm identified. |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/24/2009 08:57 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here is Part 3 of the injunction: VI Standing of Krantz and Seago - Clean Hands Krantz and Seago have both appealed the state court findings. "Doctrine of unclean hands applies only when plaintiff is guilty of improper conduct in matter as to which plaintiff seeks relief." In re Rushing, 161 B.R. 984, (E.D.Ark 1993). They shouldn't be considered guilty of the conduct until those appeals have been heard. The state's presumption of their guilt and requiring them to admit the same is the nature of this injunctive request. Defense of unclean hands does not apply where plaintiff's misconduct is not directly related to the merits of the controversy between parties. Saxon v. Blann, 968 F.2d 676 (C.A.8 Ark. 1992). The issue before the federal court is the harassment of the church, not the adjudication of abuse or neglect. The injunction in no way seeks to bar defendants from protecting children; it seeks to keep them from forcing parents to leave their church in order to regain custody of their children. Thus, even if Krantz and Seago had abused their children, they still come to this court with clean hands in asking this court to enjoin the state from forcing them to sever all ties with the church. The infringement of the plaintiffs' first amendment rights is a separate issue from the matter of abuse or neglect. Krantz and Seago have previously alleged irreparable harm that cannot be undone with monetary damages, through the vaccination of their children contrary to their wishes and Arkansas law, the driving of a wedge between them and their children with a "deprogramming" plan, and the requirement that they not only leave the Alamo church, but that they change many of their fundamentally held religious views, including admitting that portions of the Bible are abusive. VII Existence of State Court Orders Defendants ask that Plaintiffs avail themselves of the state court system to undo any wrongs, even to the point of asking the church to intervene into the cases of other parties. However, they object to availing themselves of the state court system by petitioning the court to remove conditions in the case plan that are illegal or violate civil rights. Vaccinating children against the parents' religious beliefs is illegal under Arkansas law (see Memorandum in Support of Preliminary Injunction). Using the defendants own arguments; if the court has ordered Defendant's to carry out illegal functions, then they should avail themselves of the state court process to remove those conditions so as not to expose themselves to liability. While the defendants argue that the state court found Krantz and Seago guilty of medical neglect for not vaccinating their children, the court did not order Defendants to have them vaccinated. Defendants have taken (and continue to take) this action on their own, without any court order to do so and in violation of Arkansas law. If Defendants were unclear about the order, they could file a Motion to Clarify whether the Court intended for to them to vaccinate children contrary to Arkansas law; a Motion to Reconsider if the court did mean this; and they could seek an extraordinary writ through the Arkansas appellate court if that Motion was denied. Simply stated, Defendant's have plenty of state remedies available to avoid executing an illegal order (presuming the state court ordered them to have children vaccinated, which it does not). This argument applies equally to the "deprogramming" plan and requirement to sever ties with the church. Defendants surmise what they take the court order to mean, but failed to seek clarification of those orders. The state court order does not require or allow Defendants to impose their own religion or absence of religion on the children, nor does the order require the parents to sever ties with the church in order to prove they've corrected the "abusive environment." These conditions and acts have been taken by Defendants alone without any order to do so. The defendants have caused and continue to cause the deprivation of civil rights to both parents and children. They point to a court order to justify their illegal actions, yet have taken no action to correct that order. VIII Status Quo The purpose of a preliminary injunction is to preserve the status quo. Arkansas-Best Freight System, Inc. v. U.S., 350 F.Supp. 539 (W.D.Ark. 1972). The injunction would accomplish this by forbidding Defendants from removing or keeping children on the basis of association with the Church. Further, the injunction is carefully crafted to protect the state's interest in children by simply requiring that they first show the risk of abuse to that specific child and support it with evidence; the standards already required by federal and state law. The state is free to investigate child abuse and protect children; they would simply be required to do this in a manner that complies with the Constitution, federal and state laws. The state would not be free under the injunction to remove children solely on the basis of association with the church, nor would they be free to compel parents to change their religious views and leave the church, nor to vaccinate their children illegally, nor to drive a wedge between the children and their parents over religion. The purpose of a preliminary injunction is to protect and preserve the rights of all the litigants, with the least injury to each, until the controversies between them can be tried and finally decided. Denver & R.G.R. Co. v. U.S., 124 F. 156 (C.A.8. 1903) The careful crafting of the injunction request protects both the plaintiffs and defendants. Defendants are able to remove children if the criteria in the injunction are met (the legally required criteria for removing children). They would be enjoined from carrying out their policy and practice of requiring parents to leave this church (as articulated in their own words in the response brief). Both parties are protected. IX Tony Alamo's Statements of Opinion The Defendants use statements made by Tony Alamo as proof of the risk of harm to all children in the church. Americans can hold any set of beliefs no matter how controversial; what they can't do is break the law. For example, there is a whole class of people that support the legalization of marijuana and take measures to try to change the law. As long as they aren't distributing or using the drug, this belief cannot be held against them. The First Amendment protects against the prosecution of thought crime. U.S. v. Balsys, 524 U.S. 666, 118 S.Ct. 2218 (1998). Similarly, the holding of a thought or belief cannot be used as the basis of removing children. Another act of furtherance of the belief is required. However Defendant's makes no showing of these additional acts, and simply state that because the viewpoint is there, a child may be abused at some future date as a result of those views. Tony Alamo may or may not hold a belief that girls should marry after puberty. His beliefs are constitutionally protected and irrelevant. The defendants make some unproven allegations that Alamo may practice his beliefs illegally. However, they fail to make any allegation neither that Krantz nor Seago have married an underage girl nor that they plan to allow the marriage of their daughters before they are of age. To the contrary, Seago has already forbidden the marriage of his daughter at age fourteen when she sought his permission to marry.8 And the Krantz daughters don't fall into the "target age" as alleged by the department. The Defendants openly claim that because Tony Alamo espouses and teaches certain beliefs, then all child members of the congregation are at some future risk of abuse based on these beliefs. This is an error in legal logic. X Conclusion Plaintiffs should not have to choose between their children or their church. The individual Plaintiffs have chosen to practice Christianity on a full time basis as God has commanded them to do. The defendant's practices interfere with this choice. The request for injunction is designed to preserve the Plaintiff's rights of free association in order to give voice to their religious views. The First Amendment right of religious expression is a hollow promise without the corollary right of association. They have confused association with guilt. The Defendants simply do not have the right to decide for the Plaintiffs what is appropriate in the practice of their religion. The question is: Why is association with the Church deemed abusive to children since the individual plaintiffs have already promised they would not let their children be disciplined by the Church nor would they consent to the underage marriage of their daughters. In addition, many parents now being sought by the Defendants have never participated in church discipline procedures directed against their children nor have they participated in any underage marriages of females. So, why are they being so relentlessly pursued? The answer is simple. They are part of the Church. Why can't they return to the Church? It is because their children will be taken into immediate custody and they would have to endure the pervasive trauma of being accused of being unfit parents because they have chosen to associate with the Church. There can be only one reason for the Defendants' insistence that the Plaintiffs sever their ties with the church and that is to attack the credibility of the church even though the Defendants admitted in their answer to the complaint that the church was not a cult. This is a different position than they have taken prior to this action in the state court, wherein they defined the church with language like cult, sect, commune and compound. The Plaintiffs are now faced with the untenable choice between their children or their church. Such a draconian, schizophrenic alternative could never be accepted by the rational mind of man. The frail spirit of man could never survive such an assault by the lawfully constituted authorities. So, now they come to this Court as the only available forum to not only restore their God given individual liberties, but to meet the full measure of their spiritual journey. WHEREFORE Plaintiffs pray that their request for a Preliminary Injunction be granted and that a hearing on the motion be held at a date and time deemed appropriate by the Court. Respectfully submitted, ________________________________ Phillip E. Kuhn, Esq. [link to www.arcticbeacon.com] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 667395 United States 06/24/2009 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | most likely too deep there, OP, for most here to even track what it is saying. But then, most forums do de-evolve to the lowest common denominator... but thanks for your post... it was a good read and a very important issue. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 667395 United States 06/24/2009 09:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Remember people, when it comes to the alleged separation of "Church and State" that "church" does not just mean Christianity, but all religons, even the religon of so called "atheism" and "satanism". The point of the 1st in the Bill of Rights, is that "CONGRESS SHALL NOT"... Congress, a part of the Centeral Government. Congress. Not you, not me. Congress. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 339051 United States 06/24/2009 09:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
The Jurist User ID: 699826 United States 06/24/2009 10:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place ` (Be) Divide(ed) and (be) Conquer(ed)... Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do. ~There is Tranquility in Ignorance, but Servitude is its Partner. —me ~What luck for Rulers that Men do not Think. —Adolf Hitler :damned: Doom is optional. There is good news abounds. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 456525 United States 06/24/2009 10:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/24/2009 11:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | That cult, like so many others, had nothing whatsoever to do with 'religion' and everything to do with old men fucking little girls. Get over it, they've been outed, they are pedophiles and bigomists and there are laws against that in this country. You want to fuck your niece and then marry her 14 year old daughter so you can fuck her as well then you will have to start your cult in a country where those things are allowed. But, for god's sake, leave god out of it. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 339051You have been lied to by the media. Innocent until proven guilty remember. Follow this case and learn something. |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/24/2009 11:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Truckin User ID: 694370 United States 06/24/2009 11:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: Anonymous Coward 456525That ranks right up there with the stupidest shit you've ever said. And you'd know because you've researched law, etc. for years and written a book, hmmm? |
The Jurist User ID: 699826 United States 06/24/2009 11:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: Anonymous Coward 456525That ranks right up there with the stupidest shit you've ever said. Have you written a book on the 14th Amendment? Look at this, Einstein. See how the courts state that US citizens do not have the natural right to own guns anymore Thread: 9th Circuit Incorporates 2nd Amendment ____ Last Edited by The Jurist on 06/25/2009 12:12 AM ` (Be) Divide(ed) and (be) Conquer(ed)... Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do. ~There is Tranquility in Ignorance, but Servitude is its Partner. —me ~What luck for Rulers that Men do not Think. —Adolf Hitler :damned: Doom is optional. There is good news abounds. |
Truckin User ID: 694370 United States 06/24/2009 11:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: The JuristThat ranks right up there with the stupidest shit you've ever said. Have you written a book on the 14th Amendment? Wow! Do we think alike, or what? Are you a Gemini? lol |
The Jurist User ID: 699826 United States 06/24/2009 11:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: ShaneCMuirInterestingly Kuhn says in this interview that only the first 10 amendments are taken as part of the constitution. It depends how the issue is presented. This guy is fighting "Civil Rights". He has no idea what he is doing. People do not understand that that 14th Amendment has over-written those amendments. I have seen next to no one that understands this fact. The First Ten Amendments do not apply to people in the states in the original form of the Constitution. See this case: Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore, 32 U.S. 243 (1833) Opinions Mr. Chief Justice MARSHALL delivered the opinion of the court. The judgment brought up by this writ of error having been rendered by the court of a State, this tribunal can exercise no jurisdiction over it unless it be shown to come within the provisions of the 25th section of the Judiciary Act. The plaintiff in error contends that it comes within that clause in the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution which inhibits the taking of private property for public use without just compensation. He insists that this amendment, being in favor of the liberty of the citizen, ought to be so construed as to restrain the legislative power of a state, as well as that of the United States. If this proposition be untrue, the court can take no jurisdiction of the cause. The question thus presented is, we think, of great importance, but not of much difficulty. The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves, for their own government, and not for the government of the individual States. Each State established a constitution for itself, and in that constitution provided such limitations and restrictions on the powers of its particular government as its judgment dictated. The people of the United States framed such a government for the United States as they supposed best adapted to their situation and best calculated to promote their interests. The powers they conferred on this government were to be exercised by itself, and the limitations on power, if expressed in general terms, are naturally, and we think necessarily, applicable to the government created by the instrument. They are limitations of power granted in the instrument itself, not of distinct governments framed by different persons and for different purposes. If these propositions be correct, the fifth amendment must be understood as restraining the power of the General Government, not as applicable to the States. In their several Constitutions, they have imposed such restrictions on their respective [p*248] governments, as their own wisdom suggested, such as they deemed most proper for themselves. It is a subject on which they judge exclusively, and with which others interfere no further than they are supposed to have a common interest. The counsel for the plaintiff in error insists that the Constitution was intended to secure the people of the several States against the undue exercise of power by their respective State governments, as well as against that which might be attempted by their General Government. It support of this argument he relies on the inhibitions contained in the tenth section of the first article. We think that section affords a strong, if not a conclusive, argument in support of the opinion already indicated by the court. The preceding section contains restrictions which are obviously intended for the exclusive purpose of restraining the exercise of power by the departments of the General Government. Some of them use language applicable only to Congress, others are expressed in general terms. The third clause, for example, declares, that "no bill of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed." No language can be more general, yet the demonstration is complete that it applies solely to the Government of the United States. In addition to the general arguments furnished by the instrument itself, some of which have been already suggested, the succeeding section, the avowed purpose of which is to restrain State legislation, contains in terms the very prohibition. It declares, that "no State shall pass any bill of attainder or ex post facto law." This provision, then, of the ninth section, however comprehensive its language, contains no restriction on State legislation. The ninth section having enumerated, in the nature of a bill of rights, the limitations intended to be imposed on the powers of the General Government, the tenth proceeds to enumerate those which were to operate on the State legislatures. These restrictions are brought together in the same section, and are by express words applied to the States. "No State shall enter into any treaty," &c. Perceiving, that in a constitution framed by the people of the United States, for the government of all, no limitation of the action of government on [p*249] the people would apply to the State government, unless expressed in terms, the restrictions contained in the tenth section are in direct words so applied to the States. It is worthy of remark, too, that these inhibitions generally restrain State legislation on subjects intrusted to the General Government, or in which the people of all the States feel an interest. A State is forbidden to enter into any treaty, alliance or confederation. If these compacts are with foreign nations, they interfere with the treaty-making power, which is conferred entirely on the General Government; if with each other, for political purposes, they can scarcely fail to interfere with the general purpose and intent of the Constitution. To grant letters of marque and reprisal, would lead directly to war, the power of declaring which is expressly given to Congress. To coin money is also the exercise of a power conferred on Congress. It would be tedious to recapitulate the several limitations on the powers of the States which are contained in this section. They will be found generally to restrain State legislation on subjects intrusted to the government of the Union, in which the citizens of all the States are interested. In these alone were the whole people concerned. The question of their application to States is not left to construction. It is averred in positive words. If the original Constitution, in the ninth and tenth sections of the first article, draws this plain and marked line of discrimination between the limitations it imposes on the powers of the General Government and on those of the State; if, in every inhibition intended to act on State power, words are employed which directly express that intent; some strong reason must be assigned for departing from this safe and judicious course in framing the amendments before that departure can be assumed. We search in vain for that reason. Had the people of the several States, or any of them, required changes in their Constitutions, had they required additional safeguards to liberty from the apprehended encroachments of their particular governments, the remedy was in their own hands, and could have been applied by themselves. A [p*250] convention could have been assembled by the discontented State, and the required improvements could have been made by itself. The unwieldy and cumbrous machinery of procuring a recommendation from two-thirds of Congress and the assent of three-fourths of their sister States could never have occurred to any human being as a mode of doing that which might be effected by the State itself. Had the framers of these amendments intended them to be limitations on the powers of the State governments, they would have imitated the framers of the original Constitution, and have expressed that intention. Had Congress engaged in the extraordinary occupation of improving the Constitutions of the several States by affording the people additional protection from the exercise of power by their own governments in matters which concerned themselves alone, they would have declared this purpose in plain and intelligible language. But it is universally understood, it is a part of the history of the day, that the great revolution which established the Constitution of the United States was not effected without immense opposition. Serious fears were extensively entertained that those powers which the patriot statesmen who then watched over the interests of our country deemed essential to union, and to the attainment of those invaluable objects for which union was sought, might be exercised in a manner dangerous to liberty. In almost every convention by which the Constitution was adopted, amendments to guard against the abuse of power were recommended. These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the General Government -- not against those of the local governments. In compliance with a sentiment thus generally expressed, to quiet fears thus extensively entertained, amendments were proposed by the required majority in Congress and adopted by the States. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them. We are of opinion that the provision in the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution declaring that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation is intended solely as a limitation on the exercise of power by the [p*251] Government of the United States, and is not applicable to the legislation of the States. We are therefore of opinion that there is no repugnancy between the several acts of the general assembly of Maryland, given in evidence by the defendants at the trial of this cause, in the court of that State, and the Constitution of the United States. This court, therefore, has no jurisdiction of the cause, and it is dismissed. This cause came on to be heard on the transcript of the record from the Court of Appeals for the Western Shore of the State of Maryland, and was argued by counsel. On consideration whereof, it is the opinion of this Court that there is no repugnancy between the several acts of the General Assembly of Maryland given in evidence by the defendants at the trial of this cause in the court of that State and the Constitution of the United States; whereupon it is ordered and adjudged by this court that this writ of error be, and the same is hereby, dismissed for the want of jurisdiction. ____ Last Edited by The Jurist on 06/25/2009 12:13 AM ` (Be) Divide(ed) and (be) Conquer(ed)... Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do. ~There is Tranquility in Ignorance, but Servitude is its Partner. —me ~What luck for Rulers that Men do not Think. —Adolf Hitler :damned: Doom is optional. There is good news abounds. |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 12:13 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It depends how the issue is presented. Quoting: The JuristPeople do not understand that that 14th Amendment has over-written those amendments. I have seen next to no one that understands this fact. The First Ten Amendments do not apply to people in the states in the original form of the Constitution. Kuhn is saying only the first ten count. And you are saying they don't count. This case will be facinating to watch. The constitution itself is on trial. |
II-Neutron User ID: 698407 Canada 06/25/2009 12:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: The JuristThat is right. Don't think it is true? They took the person not the child. The person is a legal fiction, a citizen and not a flesh and blood man. The "person" was created by the state and thus is owned by the state (Federal Jurisdiction) and they can use any manner of colour of law to "act upon the fiction" What People are doing is agreeing that they are a person and not a man and or woman of flesh and blood, being real, and thus not a fiction so as to break the pressumption that you may be "acted upon" All the world is a stage....... WAKE UP! [email protected] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews: 11 |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 02:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: II-NeutronThat is right. Don't think it is true? They took the person not the child. The person is a legal fiction, a citizen and not a flesh and blood man. The "person" was created by the state and thus is owned by the state (Federal Jurisdiction) and they can use any manner of colour of law to "act upon the fiction" What People are doing is agreeing that they are a person and not a man and or woman of flesh and blood, being real, and thus not a fiction so as to break the pressumption that you may be "acted upon" All the world is a stage....... WAKE UP! The Constitution is the rules for a society. It is true that as free human beings we can choose to be a member of a different society.. But it would be nice if our constitutions worked the way they were designed to and protected our rights. I still have a hope that it could be that way again. But this is a vital court case. If the seperation between church and state is not upheld then I would suggest we all start our own seperate societies. "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President -- should he be Catholic -- how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him, or the people who might elect him." - John F. Kennedy |
II-Neutron User ID: 698407 Canada 06/25/2009 02:36 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: ShaneCMuirThat is right. Don't think it is true? They took the person not the child. The person is a legal fiction, a citizen and not a flesh and blood man. The "person" was created by the state and thus is owned by the state (Federal Jurisdiction) and they can use any manner of colour of law to "act upon the fiction" What People are doing is agreeing that they are a person and not a man and or woman of flesh and blood, being real, and thus not a fiction so as to break the pressumption that you may be "acted upon" All the world is a stage....... WAKE UP! The Constitution is the rules for a society. It is true that as free human beings we can choose to be a member of a different society.. But it would be nice if our constitutions worked the way they were designed to and protected our rights. I still have a hope that it could be that way again. But this is a vital court case. If the seperation between church and state is not upheld then I would suggest we all start our own seperate societies. "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President -- should he be Catholic -- how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him, or the people who might elect him." - John F. Kennedy How about this.... The BAR is a Law society, to whit you are not a member, yet it would try to enforce it's societies laws upon you. Could you not simply say that you cannot recognize their laws as you are not a member of that society and as such are not beholden to it's codes, laws, regulations, statutes, by-laws etc. etc. etc. ? Furthermore if the law (and it is) is copyrighted, and you not being a licensed BAR member and thus not having the permission to use the societies copyrighted legal texts, how can one so do anything but inform the court, you are a man, you are not crossing the bar, and you have not been granted license to practise the legalities of the court. How ever could you "appear"? Last Edited by II-Neutron on 06/25/2009 02:37 AM [email protected] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews: 11 |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 03:23 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | How about this.... Quoting: II-NeutronThe BAR is a Law society, to whit you are not a member, yet it would try to enforce it's societies laws upon you. Could you not simply say that you cannot recognize their laws as you are not a member of that society and as such are not beholden to it's codes, laws, regulations, statutes, by-laws etc. etc. etc. ? Furthermore if the law (and it is) is copyrighted, and you not being a licensed BAR member and thus not having the permission to use the societies copyrighted legal texts, how can one so do anything but inform the court, you are a man, you are not crossing the bar, and you have not been granted license to practise the legalities of the court. How ever could you "appear"? Constitutionally speaking you can represent yourself. The monopoly of the bar is just simply a lie. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 697612 United States 06/25/2009 03:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
II-Neutron User ID: 698407 Canada 06/25/2009 08:23 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | How about this.... Quoting: ShaneCMuirThe BAR is a Law society, to whit you are not a member, yet it would try to enforce it's societies laws upon you. Could you not simply say that you cannot recognize their laws as you are not a member of that society and as such are not beholden to it's codes, laws, regulations, statutes, by-laws etc. etc. etc. ? Furthermore if the law (and it is) is copyrighted, and you not being a licensed BAR member and thus not having the permission to use the societies copyrighted legal texts, how can one so do anything but inform the court, you are a man, you are not crossing the bar, and you have not been granted license to practise the legalities of the court. How ever could you "appear"? Constitutionally speaking you can represent yourself. The monopoly of the bar is just simply a lie. "you can represent yourself" Ok that is a good, I agree there is you, AND, Yourself. All the world is a stage..... (THEY ARE WHIRLING DERVISHES DANCING IN MY (OUR) MINDS :-) Know yea not yourselves? I am now going to bridge the gap, you, YOU are that which is, one thing, being in the flesh that which represents Yourselves, if by election or otherwise to re-present yourself in the third "person" and thus you in fact act, appear, and subsequently are to be "acted upon" on the "person". Accordingly. such is rendered unto that you, namely that one of yourselves to represent that which appears to be you ! I am not a respector of persons. Now I ask you would you like to be just you? Chase the tail of the Dragon if you will, that is ENTIRELY UP TO You! Last Edited by II-Neutron on 06/25/2009 09:03 AM [email protected] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews: 11 |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 07:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 08:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "you can represent yourself" Quoting: II-NeutronOk that is a good, I agree there is you, AND, Yourself. All the world is a stage..... (THEY ARE WHIRLING DERVISHES DANCING IN MY (OUR) MINDS :-) Know yea not yourselves? I am now going to bridge the gap, you, YOU are that which is, one thing, being in the flesh that which represents Yourselves, if by election or otherwise to re-present yourself in the third "person" and thus you in fact act, appear, and subsequently are to be "acted upon" on the "person". Accordingly. such is rendered unto that you, namely that one of yourselves to represent that which appears to be you ! I am not a respector of persons. Now I ask you would you like to be just you? Chase the tail of the Dragon if you will, that is ENTIRELY UP TO You! Since I first heard of this story my immediate concern has been for these children that have been taken, at gun point, from their parents. My long term concern is for consitutional law to return to our countries. The first amendment and thus the seperation of church and state is essential for that to occur. I am confident that the courts will rule in favour of the first amendment. If they don't.. then I guess I shall be looking to purchase a gun to protect myself.. because we will then officially be back in the dark ages. |
ShaneCMuir (OP) User ID: 611456 Australia 06/25/2009 09:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "The unwarranted seizure of children from non-abusive, non-neglectful homes has become a national problem of staggering proportions. At any given time, there are, now, more than a half of a million children in custody in the United States. It has been estimated that nearly one out of every twenty children in the entire United States can be expected to undergo investigation this year. The new bastions of “child abuse protectors” and “social engineers,” who are out to build a better world, have destroyed more families here in America than all of the wars, plagues, and pestilences that America has experienced throughout its entire history. Child Protective Services routinely violates the Constitutional rights of parents and their children in the process of their “intervention”." An Expose on the Child Abuse Industry (right click and download pdf [1.4 MB]) [link to www.drshirleymoore.com] Last Edited by ShaneCMuir on 06/25/2009 11:49 PM |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1978 Canada 06/25/2009 09:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The gooberment does not have reason to be involved in your personal affairs. If the county has the knowledge of safety hazards to kids, and thus should have public health support for solutions. Foster care fosters things that NO child should know cut the cord . |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 711302 United States 06/25/2009 11:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "Pro se legal representation refers to the instance of a person representing himself or herself without a lawyer in a court proceeding, whether as a defendant or a plaintiff and whether the matter is civil or criminal. Pro se is a Latin phrase meaning "for oneself". This status is sometimes known as propria persona (abbreviated to "pro per")." [link to en.wikipedia.org] btw, I quoted and used as reference all sorts of published law in my defenses. Sorry to use y'all's copyrighted stuff. It saved my ass, though, so thanks. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 484854 United States 06/25/2009 11:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Look at this, Einstein. See how the courts state that US citizens do not have the natural right to own guns anymore ____ Quoting: The JuristNatural right to own guns? There was never a natural right to own guns. You're born with natural rights. And nobody with two working brain cells would want to argue that a child has a natural right to own a gun. |
Art Deco User ID: 710131 United States 06/25/2009 11:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 456525 United States 06/25/2009 11:36 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: TruckinThat ranks right up there with the stupidest shit you've ever said. And you'd know because you've researched law, etc. for years and written a book, hmmm? As a matter of fact, that's how I make a living. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 456525 United States 06/25/2009 11:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I doubt it... Not with the 14th Amendment in place Quoting: The JuristThat ranks right up there with the stupidest shit you've ever said. Have you written a book on the 14th Amendment? Look at this, Einstein. See how the courts state that US citizens do not have the natural right to own guns anymore Thread: 9th Circuit Incorporates 2nd Amendment ____ I've looked at your "book" and listened to an interview you gave. You are a bafoon. I've also read the complaint about you. Real hum dinger. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 456525 United States 06/25/2009 11:45 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It depends how the issue is presented. This guy is fighting "Civil Rights". He has no idea what he is doing. Quoting: The JuristPeople do not understand that that 14th Amendment has over-written those amendments. I have seen next to no one that understands this fact. The First Ten Amendments do not apply to people in the states in the original form of the Constitution. ____ Maybe that should have been your first clue. |