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African Grey Parrot

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 01:34 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They make a mess like you would not believe...all birds do really...whoever came up with that phrase "eats like a bird" never had one, cause they eat and shit all day long!...lol...

Good pets, but they are a lot of work to clean up after.
Greys are smart, they can talk a lot when they feel like it and they mostly never feel like it when people come over to visit so if you want a "show off" bird, they ain't it.

:molybdenum:
 Quoting: SHR


So sweet hf!
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06/13/2012 02:01 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
i breed them...they are very intelligent

i have 1 pair that is very personable. sugar n buster

they other pairs i have are wild.

sugar n buster listen intently when spoken to
they seem to understand what i am saying

they can repeat words when only heard once

these birds can crack you up for sure
if frightened they can scream very loud

simple things can frighten them.

if you want a bird that gets attention and is more outgoing then a blue n gold macaw would be better

but they cannot match the talking ability of the agc

i used to breed blue n golds..they are very beautiful and i would get one if your looking for something you can take out in public/ a grey is shy
curlytail2000

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06/13/2012 03:20 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Regardless of the type of bird you get, it is always easiest on the owner to buy a hand fed baby. ALL of our hand-fed baby parakeets have talked.
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Same here. The parakeet said everything, and made all the noises, that the parrots did only ten times as fast! Hand fed parakeets are amazing!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


That said, go to youtube and search on Disco the parakeet. he is amazing!!
Free speech is never free.

Well I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free
So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key - Eagles
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 03:31 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Regardless of the type of bird you get, it is always easiest on the owner to buy a hand fed baby. ALL of our hand-fed baby parakeets have talked.
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Same here. The parakeet said everything, and made all the noises, that the parrots did only ten times as fast! Hand fed parakeets are amazing!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


I had a friend who's parakeet could mimic the sounds of a telephone ring, the microwave beep, and he said several words.
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 03:41 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Regardless of the type of bird you get, it is always easiest on the owner to buy a hand fed baby. ALL of our hand-fed baby parakeets have talked.
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Same here. The parakeet said everything, and made all the noises, that the parrots did only ten times as fast! Hand fed parakeets are amazing!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


I had a friend who's parakeet could mimic the sounds of a telephone ring, the microwave beep, and he said several words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16659040


Lol. Our parakeet's funniest stuff was when he combined the yellow nape and African Grey's laughing together and whooping it up while they were listening to tv game shows and sitcoms. It was just hilarious when they all would get going at once and set up their own demented feedback loop.

Here's the mentioned parakeet video...

Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 05:25 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Regardless of the type of bird you get, it is always easiest on the owner to buy a hand fed baby. ALL of our hand-fed baby parakeets have talked.
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Same here. The parakeet said everything, and made all the noises, that the parrots did only ten times as fast! Hand fed parakeets are amazing!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


I had a friend who's parakeet could mimic the sounds of a telephone ring, the microwave beep, and he said several words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16659040


Lol. Our parakeet's funniest stuff was when he combined the yellow nape and African Grey's laughing together and whooping it up while they were listening to tv game shows and sitcoms. It was just hilarious when they all would get going at once and set up their own demented feedback loop.

Here's the mentioned parakeet video...


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


That video is hysterical! I watched about four videos afterwards lol...I could keep going! He reminds me of my bird Chi-chi that I had in high school...I miss her 8-/.

Thank you for posting it hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 08:46 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
African grey parrots are way to smart to leave alone all day, IMO. If you work at home and can take the bird with you when you travel - that's another story.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


Well things are sorta up in the air as far as scheduling goes. There might be a bit of a career change in the not too distant future that would definitely help to regulate my time. I don't usually travel too far and usually it's only for 2 days. I'm going to have to read more about the effects of them being alone and what can be done in a positive way to keep them entertained and occupied during any absences.


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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 08:53 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
I want to add to your title -Bit a hole in my ex-wife's nose.

True story. He got pissed because she wouldn't let him step up on her so he flew over and chomp. bet it hurt too.
 Quoting: <FOCUS> 660580


Damn...

They can bite right down to the bone from what I hear. I think it would be good to find a proven pair in which both have good temperments.


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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:03 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They make a mess like you would not believe...all birds do really...whoever came up with that phrase "eats like a bird" never had one, cause they eat and shit all day long!...lol...

Good pets, but they are a lot of work to clean up after.
Greys are smart, they can talk a lot when they feel like it and they mostly never feel like it when people come over to visit so if you want a "show off" bird, they ain't it.

:molybdenum:
 Quoting: SHR


Hey SHR, that's a beauty there!

A friend of mine growing up had one. That's the only time I've really ever been around one on any kind of consistent basis. He would tell me about how many words it could say but just about everytime I was over there the parrot would just sorta make the typical parrot noises, lol. But I think once or twice I did catch a word.


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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:13 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
I have a cockatiel and I didn't realize how devoted and strong bonded they are. Once you become their chosen human, you have an obligation to devote yourself to them too.

Are you willing to spend your life with one? Take them on vacations with you? If not, do you have back-up to take care of them (family)? Can you give them the amount of quality time daily they need?

If I leave mine alone all day, which is rare, I leave the radio on softly playing classical music. They hate silence. Silence for them means danger (think of the jungle).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1112387


Well to be honest I was surprised at just how long these guys live for and if I were to obtain a young one, it's got a halfway decent shot at outliving me! Although science does have 'reversing the aging process' within its reach within the next 40 years so I have that on my side. chuckle

Usually when I take vacations I don't travel too far and if I were than arranging care for the bird while I was away wouldn't be a problem. It's more my normal day to day routine that I'm somewhat concerned with as far as absences go. The radio/TV option sounds like it works for many owners here.


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Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 09:19 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Nice thread. Parrots are very good pets if you understand them.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:35 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Nice thread OP!

Aw I've always wanted an African Grey. It's such a commitment. I've had a few parakeets come and go since high school but having this kind of bird is no joke...judging by the responses here too!

I hope you find the right bird and friend for life hf!
 Quoting: BetteDavisEyes


Thanks Bette. :)

I'm going to take my time with this and give it at least until the tail end of the summer to see how things pan out but I agree this thread has helped me out quite a lot.

hf


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Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 09:41 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
You should also check the book " Alex and Me " if you haven't already.

[link to www.amazon.com]

Good luck with your search Bowman !
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06/13/2012 09:42 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They live a REALLY long time so be prepared!
There are so many people who take on birds because they get into the nostalgia of it and don't realize the work involved.

My Mom used to raise birds and would often take on birds that would get dumped at shelters by people who bought them without being prepared for the commitment and it seems birds DO take it harder than other kinds of pets.

She had a Patagonian parrot and he was hella territorial over her but he was trained pretty well as far as using his cage for the bathroom (he was free range around the house) and didn't make much mess other than throwing birdseed sometimes when he would get pissed.

They're a handful if you get them as a babe but it's better for bonding and all that. She'd gotten hers from a rescue so it took a long time to get him to trust her...he was bald for like a year or so after she took him on but eventually he came around...feathers and all.

Like any animal you invite in your home...so worth all the extra work.

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:44 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
i breed them...they are very intelligent

i have 1 pair that is very personable. sugar n buster

they other pairs i have are wild.

sugar n buster listen intently when spoken to
they seem to understand what i am saying

they can repeat words when only heard once

these birds can crack you up for sure
if frightened they can scream very loud

simple things can frighten them.

if you want a bird that gets attention and is more outgoing then a blue n gold macaw would be better

but they cannot match the talking ability of the agc

i used to breed blue n golds..they are very beautiful and i would get one if your looking for something you can take out in public/ a grey is shy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17876504


Thanks for your take AC.

Well I'm not really looking to attract attention or become the next space pirate...nothing like that. Although I could see me bringing the bird on weekend excusions and things like that.

peace


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Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 09:51 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
African Greys are the best. I have an Amazon parrot, which are the second best talkers after the African Grey, but you can always tell it's a bird talking. The Grey can actually imitate your voice, and other people's too, to a degree that you cannot tell it's not the real person speaking. Almost scary.

My buddy had one. His wife had a little yappy dog that he hated, and the bird hated it, too. It would call out in HER voice, "Come here, Fluffy," then when the little dustmop would come running in the room, tail wagging, would say in HIS voice, "Bad dog! Bad dog!" and the little rat in a dog suit would just freak right out. Funny as shit. ANd you could tell, the bird was definitely doing it knowingly.

He had an alarm, so that whenever the front door opened it would give of a totally unnatural electronic bleeping noise. The bird could do it perfectly, so you would hear it, and look towards the door thinking someone was coming in. THen you would look at the bird and just KNOW he was laughing at you, doing it to freak you out. Lots of other stuff, too.

As pointed out above, any bird needs LOTS of attention. Greys especially will go totally insane if you ignore them, and start plucking out their own feathers, and just go batshit insane and then be just a huge pain in the ass for the next 60 or 70 years. So keep that in mind.

ALso, all birds will make a HUGE mess, all day, every day. Once again, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

NO WAY you can have cats and a bird. THe cat will eventually kill the bird, no matter how much you imagine they like each other. Unless you keep the bird in a cage at all times. FOR THE NEXT 60 OR 70 YEARS. How would YOU like to be in solitary confinement for life? Yeah, the bird will go insane if you do that. Worth it for your widdle puddy tat?
Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 09:51 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They live a REALLY long time so be prepared!
There are so many people who take on birds because they get into the nostalgia of it and don't realize the work involved.

My Mom used to raise birds and would often take on birds that would get dumped at shelters by people who bought them without being prepared for the commitment and it seems birds DO take it harder than other kinds of pets.

She had a Patagonian parrot and he was hella territorial over her but he was trained pretty well as far as using his cage for the bathroom (he was free range around the house) and didn't make much mess other than throwing birdseed sometimes when he would get pissed.

They're a handful if you get them as a babe but it's better for bonding and all that. She'd gotten hers from a rescue so it took a long time to get him to trust her...he was bald for like a year or so after she took him on but eventually he came around...feathers and all.

Like any animal you invite in your home...so worth all the extra work.

hf
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


They are a lot smarter than you think they are but are very good pets when they trust you. Mine liked to watch TV with me LOL. I was probably the dumbest one but he sure liked green acres re-runs.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:55 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Regardless of the type of bird you get, it is always easiest on the owner to buy a hand fed baby. ALL of our hand-fed baby parakeets have talked.
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Same here. The parakeet said everything, and made all the noises, that the parrots did only ten times as fast! Hand fed parakeets are amazing!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


I had a friend who's parakeet could mimic the sounds of a telephone ring, the microwave beep, and he said several words.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16659040


Lol. Our parakeet's funniest stuff was when he combined the yellow nape and African Grey's laughing together and whooping it up while they were listening to tv game shows and sitcoms. It was just hilarious when they all would get going at once and set up their own demented feedback loop.

Here's the mentioned parakeet video...


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1509660


chuckle

Disco looks just like one of the parakeets I had when I was a kid. We had a pair, the other one was blue. But neither of them could chatter like that! :)


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dirty.d

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06/13/2012 09:58 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
I am a slave to 2 conures and 2 indian rignecks. I also help at a rescue and have seen so many people giving up their greys is very sad.
A grey won't be a good choice if you travel heck almost no bird is a good choice if you travel or are gone for periods of 1 day or more. I have know parrots that start plucking cuz they have been alone a few days.

Greys can be very nervous and usually 1 person birds.

Do you own a house? have a stable life?

Parrots are very messy. Mine have their own room in my house yet I have to clean every single day. I spend around $200 a month in high quality food I also cook for them. I have to saw 100's of tiny wood blocks a week to refill their toys. That saves me a lot of money before I invested in a power saw and drill I was spending more $$$$ just buying toys.

Sound like you are doing research so that is good. Like I said I am literally a slave for my 4 small parrots. If I had known I had probably not got them but I love them to death they are the light of my life.

You have to buy the biggest cage possible. I build my own playstands and gyms with pvc tube. that saves a lot too.

I have to work nights only. I go to work usually around 4pm during the day I have to interact/feed/make toys for the birds aka be a slave.

I know you heard this before but don't get the bird expecting it will talk.

-Tons of patience
-Tons of money even if you diy
-Tons of time
-patience patience patience
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 09:59 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Nice thread. Parrots are very good pets if you understand them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15631693


Thanks AC.

That's what I'm hoping to do.


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dirty.d

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06/13/2012 10:00 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
what I tried to say is that is very hard to keep with the emotional needs of a bird nothing like a dog or a cat. They need a ton of stimulation to be really happy. and that cost a lot of money/time/patience.
In the end if you are willing it is very rewarding.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 10:04 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
You should also check the book " Alex and Me " if you haven't already.

[link to www.amazon.com]

Good luck with your search Bowman !
 Quoting: !saac


!saac, I was actually watching some vids last night about Alex and Einstein. Was sad to read that they both have since passed away. :(

[link to www.youtube.com]




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Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 10:08 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They are a lot smarter than you think they are but are very good pets when they trust you. Mine liked to watch TV with me LOL. I was probably the dumbest one but he sure liked green acres re-runs.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15631693


I've heard birds have preferences to different voices...maybe yours liked the southern drawl!
IRQ_1

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06/13/2012 10:21 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Nice thread. Parrots are very good pets if you understand them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15631693


Thanks AC.

That's what I'm hoping to do.


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN


No offense Bowman but if you get it wrong?

In the wild African Grey's mate for life, to change owners goes completely against what there are evolved to be used to. It LITERALLY KILLS YEARS OFF OF THEIR LIFE every time they "change hands".

Your betting your own entertainment that you will be able to give 30 minutes (@ a minimum) a day to a critter that is LITERALLY in their eyes your mate and being just a very few generations removed from the jungle they take this very seriously. I HIGHLY recommend against this course of action for the birds sake.

No offense but if I pissed you off and you choose not to go down this course means that there's one less rescue bird to take care of.

[link to www.greyforums.net]

hf

[link to www.ravenshaven.org]
[link to www.featheredfriendsforever.org]
[link to parrotsfirst.org]
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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 10:22 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
They live a REALLY long time so be prepared!
There are so many people who take on birds because they get into the nostalgia of it and don't realize the work involved.

My Mom used to raise birds and would often take on birds that would get dumped at shelters by people who bought them without being prepared for the commitment and it seems birds DO take it harder than other kinds of pets.

She had a Patagonian parrot and he was hella territorial over her but he was trained pretty well as far as using his cage for the bathroom (he was free range around the house) and didn't make much mess other than throwing birdseed sometimes when he would get pissed.

They're a handful if you get them as a babe but it's better for bonding and all that. She'd gotten hers from a rescue so it took a long time to get him to trust her...he was bald for like a year or so after she took him on but eventually he came around...feathers and all.

Like any animal you invite in your home...so worth all the extra work.

hf
 Quoting: ArunaLuna


Hey Luna!

Well there's been a bit of a void since I had to turn my dog over to my dad. She was having a really hard time adjusting at the new place and my father was more than happy to take her on. Only took her like a week to get used to him and they've been great since. He's even teaching her a bit of sign language. He'll probably have her talking by the end of the summer, hehe...But we go see her often and she'll be out to camp with us too becuase the kids really miss her.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm really undecided at the moment but I hope it works out. I know from what I've read so far how important it is to keep the happy so that they stay healthy. So if things seem to align right with sceduling and that kind of stuff I may just bring one home.

hf

------
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 10:34 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
African Greys are the best. I have an Amazon parrot, which are the second best talkers after the African Grey, but you can always tell it's a bird talking. The Grey can actually imitate your voice, and other people's too, to a degree that you cannot tell it's not the real person speaking. Almost scary.

My buddy had one. His wife had a little yappy dog that he hated, and the bird hated it, too. It would call out in HER voice, "Come here, Fluffy," then when the little dustmop would come running in the room, tail wagging, would say in HIS voice, "Bad dog! Bad dog!" and the little rat in a dog suit would just freak right out. Funny as shit. ANd you could tell, the bird was definitely doing it knowingly.

He had an alarm, so that whenever the front door opened it would give of a totally unnatural electronic bleeping noise. The bird could do it perfectly, so you would hear it, and look towards the door thinking someone was coming in. THen you would look at the bird and just KNOW he was laughing at you, doing it to freak you out. Lots of other stuff, too.

As pointed out above, any bird needs LOTS of attention. Greys especially will go totally insane if you ignore them, and start plucking out their own feathers, and just go batshit insane and then be just a huge pain in the ass for the next 60 or 70 years. So keep that in mind.

ALso, all birds will make a HUGE mess, all day, every day. Once again, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

NO WAY you can have cats and a bird. THe cat will eventually kill the bird, no matter how much you imagine they like each other. Unless you keep the bird in a cage at all times. FOR THE NEXT 60 OR 70 YEARS. How would YOU like to be in solitary confinement for life? Yeah, the bird will go insane if you do that. Worth it for your widdle puddy tat?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17884534


Thanks AC. From what I've read so far I've seen a lot of mixed experiences regarding birds and other pets. Some say it's a smooth relationship and others say things more in line with your experiences. It sounds like maybe it's just a personality thing? 1dunno1

Is it really 60 or 70 years? I read that the longest on record was 49. If that's the case then it's definitely going to outlast me!


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Anonymous Coward
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06/13/2012 10:38 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Awww...sorry to hear about the dog...and in that case I'd typically recommend to wait at least a year before you take on another pet...sometimes the loss of one pet makes people make bad pet decisions in the wake of that...

You've got a good head on your shoulders though...you'll do whats right for you.

hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 10:40 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
I am a slave to 2 conures and 2 indian rignecks. I also help at a rescue and have seen so many people giving up their greys is very sad.
A grey won't be a good choice if you travel heck almost no bird is a good choice if you travel or are gone for periods of 1 day or more. I have know parrots that start plucking cuz they have been alone a few days.

Greys can be very nervous and usually 1 person birds.

Do you own a house? have a stable life?

Parrots are very messy. Mine have their own room in my house yet I have to clean every single day. I spend around $200 a month in high quality food I also cook for them. I have to saw 100's of tiny wood blocks a week to refill their toys. That saves me a lot of money before I invested in a power saw and drill I was spending more $$$$ just buying toys.

Sound like you are doing research so that is good. Like I said I am literally a slave for my 4 small parrots. If I had known I had probably not got them but I love them to death they are the light of my life.

You have to buy the biggest cage possible. I build my own playstands and gyms with pvc tube. that saves a lot too.

I have to work nights only. I go to work usually around 4pm during the day I have to interact/feed/make toys for the birds aka be a slave.

I know you heard this before but don't get the bird expecting it will talk.

-Tons of patience
-Tons of money even if you diy
-Tons of time
-patience patience patience
 Quoting: dirty.d


Well I would only be interested in 1 bird. 4 would be too, too much for me. I know some birds like love birds really need their own companion to flurish but from what I've read of the African Grey's they sound like they can be content with just the owner.

Using PVC is a great idea, I'm always using that stuff so it's readily available. Thanks for the tips dirty.d!


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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/13/2012 10:48 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
Nice thread. Parrots are very good pets if you understand them.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15631693


Thanks AC.

That's what I'm hoping to do.


------
 Quoting: BOWMAN


No offense Bowman but if you get it wrong?

In the wild African Grey's mate for life, to change owners goes completely against what there are evolved to be used to. It LITERALLY KILLS YEARS OFF OF THEIR LIFE every time they "change hands".

Your betting your own entertainment that you will be able to give 30 minutes (@ a minimum) a day to a critter that is LITERALLY in their eyes your mate and being just a very few generations removed from the jungle they take this very seriously. I HIGHLY recommend against this course of action for the birds sake.

No offense but if I pissed you off and you choose not to go down this course means that there's one less rescue bird to take care of.

[link to www.greyforums.net]

hf

[link to www.ravenshaven.org]
[link to www.featheredfriendsforever.org]
[link to parrotsfirst.org]
 Quoting: IRQ_1


Not at all IRQ_1, that's why I started this thread, to get other people's take and experiences, for good or bad. I'll tell you I've developed quite the appreciation for that kind of commitment in the time that I have been researching this, and just getting a feel for my own personal situations and what I can and can't do. So don't worry, if it doesn't look like it won't work I won't force anything. I sure do have more reading to do on this and thank you for the links you provided. :)

hf


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IRQ_1

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06/13/2012 10:53 PM
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Re: African Grey Parrot
I am a slave to 2 conures and 2 indian rignecks. I also help at a rescue and have seen so many people giving up their greys is very sad.
A grey won't be a good choice if you travel heck almost no bird is a good choice if you travel or are gone for periods of 1 day or more. I have know parrots that start plucking cuz they have been alone a few days.

Greys can be very nervous and usually 1 person birds.

Do you own a house? have a stable life?

Parrots are very messy. Mine have their own room in my house yet I have to clean every single day. I spend around $200 a month in high quality food I also cook for them. I have to saw 100's of tiny wood blocks a week to refill their toys. That saves me a lot of money before I invested in a power saw and drill I was spending more $$$$ just buying toys.

Sound like you are doing research so that is good. Like I said I am literally a slave for my 4 small parrots. If I had known I had probably not got them but I love them to death they are the light of my life.

You have to buy the biggest cage possible. I build my own playstands and gyms with pvc tube. that saves a lot too.

I have to work nights only. I go to work usually around 4pm during the day I have to interact/feed/make toys for the birds aka be a slave.

I know you heard this before but don't get the bird expecting it will talk.

-Tons of patience
-Tons of money even if you diy
-Tons of time
-patience patience patience
 Quoting: dirty.d


Well I would only be interested in 1 bird. 4 would be too, too much for me. I know some birds like love birds really need their own companion to flurish but from what I've read of the African Grey's they sound like they can be content with just the owner.

Using PVC is a great idea, I'm always using that stuff so it's readily available. Thanks for the tips dirty.d!


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 Quoting: BOWMAN


If your going to use PVC rough it up a little with a grinder to give the talons something to grab into, like natural bark. But don't forget the ever needy beak! They need natural untreated wood to chew on. Much like our nails and hair their talons and beaks never stop growing. Unlike puppies, they NEVER OUTGROW the chewing stage because to a parrot it's not a stage but a survival trait for them.
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