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"Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"

 
Engineer
User ID: 694654
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08/10/2012 07:06 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Something worthy of notice in the HP parachute photo is how the parachute and the vehicle assembly are perfectly vertical, as if they are all dropping straight down - how can this be unless it is almost touching down? It looks like a fairly high-altitude photo, taken from the assembly in orbit, so the vehicle assembly should be dragging the parachute with some horizontal velocity, the chute should be oriented diagonally from the vehicle assembly, but it all looks like a perfectly vertical drop.
Engineer
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08/10/2012 07:20 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
The parachute doesn't look any bigger than one a man would use on Earth, assuming the vehicle assembly is like an SUV. I wonder why NASA doesn't release all the technical details such as what happened when, and how fast are things moving, and at what height are things happening, and why isn't their a constant video stream of the entire event? Why do we get everything piecemeal?

With a chute so small (not the 1000-2000x size that would allow the vehicle assembly to hit the surface as hard as a parachuting man on Earth), that thing would still be going almost 1000 miles per hour down to the surface, and I highly doubt the "space crane" (which evidently has nothing to do with space) had enough fuel and power to stop over 2000lbs traveling at almost 1000mph. I am not seeing anything that makes much engineering sense.
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 07:28 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
The parachute doesn't look any bigger than one a man would use on Earth, assuming the vehicle assembly is like an SUV. I wonder why NASA doesn't release all the technical details such as what happened when, and how fast are things moving, and at what height are things happening, and why isn't their a constant video stream of the entire event? Why do we get everything piecemeal?

With a chute so small (not the 1000-2000x size that would allow the vehicle assembly to hit the surface as hard as a parachuting man on Earth), that thing would still be going almost 1000 miles per hour down to the surface, and I highly doubt the "space crane" (which evidently has nothing to do with space) had enough fuel and power to stop over 2000lbs traveling at almost 1000mph. I am not seeing anything that makes much engineering sense.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Good posts, Mr. Engineer!

cheers

This parachute nonsense is the weakest link in NASA's ridiculous BS story.
Engineer
User ID: 694654
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08/10/2012 07:35 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Mars escape velocity = 5.03 Km/sec = 3.12 miles/sec = 11,250 miles/hr
Earth escape velocity = 11.19 Km/sec = 6.95 miles/sec = 25,000 miles/hr

Mars day = 24.62 hrs Earth day = 24 hrs

Mars Atmospheric Pressure = 0.097 pounds/sq in
Earth atmospheric pressure = 1014 mb = 14.7 pounds/sq in

Mars atmospheric Density = 0.020 kg/m3 = 0.0012 pounds/cubic ft
Earth atmospheric density = 1.23 kg/m3 = 0.0768 pounds/cubic ft

So, Earth's atmospheric density is about 60x that of Mars.
That parachute is doing nothing for 2000lbs. The "space crane" would have to do the majority of work in slowing that thing down, and I am not seeing the fuel to do it. The volume of fuel would have to be at least the same size as the vehicle assembly, perhaps many times more, just as with a rocket.

And what kind of controls are guiding and managing it all? And where is that data? An engineer would think there would be a constant stream of data from all these automatic controls.

Probably the same place 3rd party evidence of the moon landings.
WELL done
User ID: 21659772
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08/10/2012 07:36 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
They say they used a parachute to land a 1 ton vehicle. Good luck!!!

Satellite Image Of Mars Rover Curiosity Shows Parachute Deployed
[link to www.huffingtonpost.com]

"The highest atmospheric density on Mars is equal to the density found 35 km (21 miles or 115,000 ft) above the Earth's surface. The resulting maximum surface pressure is only 0.6% of that of the Earth (101.3 kPa)." - wikipedia
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Mars has 0.6% of the atmosphere of earth. Call it no atmosphere, a vacuum. Parachutes won't fucking work. Am I stupid? My SAT scores were 95th percentile (highest you can get.) Am I the only one in the world to notice this? I feel like I'm in a vacuum (because no one can hear you yelling in a vacuum.) Just shoot me. Is there one fucking high school science teacher in the entire country who can back me up? But, ooooh... it's NASA, ooooh... it's JPL, they're smarter than everybody else. Well fuck them!!! They are fucking lying and tell them I said so. A $2.5 billion program, but I can't get a fucking job anywhere. And who cares if there's life on Mars, let alone protein building blocks? I sure don't fucking care. I can't even find intelligent life on earth. Do you know what I could do with $2.5 billion? Think of the women I could be dating.
 Quoting: sanchezal28 13460809


lol, you found the flaw in their conspiracy and your the first to notice. Good work. You did work this out after studying the materials, design and technology they are using, didn't you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21569848


Ditto..well done.. id give you a job.cool2
Engineer
User ID: 694654
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08/10/2012 08:15 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
You have to think of "shooting stars" or meteors. That is essentially what this is. It is released in orbit, it's going down just like a meteor, 13,000+ miles per hour. It's like a shooting star, or other satellites you see in the sky at night. It is not dropping like a rock.

Imagine seeing a shooting star, how they speed across the sky at night, and think what it would take to slow it down if it was the size/weight of a Sports Utility Vehicle.

A man sized parachute in an atmoshpere 60-100x less dense than Earths? A little fuel like the gas tank on an automobile? Hardly.

That is why I say this is all nonsense. If it was real, you would be getting all the data before they fix it all for the questions they get.

You would hear "it is 10 seconds since the vehicle module was released from orbit, the onboard computers are now reporting a speed of XXX based on XXX measuring devices, laser sensors are reporting a height of XXX, atmospheric pressure from the XXX device is detecting XXX, temperature sensors are reporting XXX ... it is now 1 minute ...." and so on. But they are afraid people will catch them with the fraud, so they will never do that. But I am sure any sensors used in such a project, if real, would be reporting a steady, easily readable stream of this data for human correction/intervention. That would be essential. Don't give me this "oh, it's in a special code, and we will be deciphering it over the next few months" bullshit!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8293952
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08/10/2012 08:17 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
[link to www.landoverbaptist.net]


HAHAHA!

So, just to sum up a bit:
- Earth is flat, has four corners and so on...
- Satan put mass produced dino fossils in the ground so scientists can find them.
- Satan sneaks in gardens and paint flowers (wtf!!)
- Satan sends demons to possess rocks to fool geologist
- and the list goes on.

I mean who the fuck could in his right mind believe in such steaming pile of bullshit.

My brain just farted from reading this.

[link to www.landoverbaptist.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 856367


It's a parody site, fools, it's not real. It's a joke.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21663263
Canada
08/10/2012 08:21 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
this mars shit is the biggest load of complete bullshit that nasa and the government has come up with, since the shooting anyway, i know that american people in general are good, but this distraction: no, do not fall for there lies, this is big time bullshit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21380624


this mars shit is the biggest load of complete bullshit that nasa and the government has come up with, since the shooting anyway, i know that american people in general are good, but this distraction: no, do not fall for there lies, this is big time bullshit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21380624


Hahaha. You fucking goofball. Why is it a hoax, you fucking mongloid knuckledragger? What proof do you have that it's not real? None, you fucking fool.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 3493668
Netherlands
08/10/2012 08:27 AM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Amazing that your entire 'fact' is based off some christian forum, people who shun science in any way they can to begin with.
But, that is probably more accurate then what people who actually studied tell you right...
NASA's New Film
User ID: 694654
United States
08/10/2012 01:06 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
This is NASA's new film:

[link to mars.jpl.nasa.gov]

Meet the film crew with Curiosity:

[link to media.timesfreepress.com]

Getting things ready for a day on the set:

[link to www.washingtonpost.com]

On location:

[link to www.kcet.org]

Meanwhile, back on the ranch ...

[link to i.dailymail.co.uk]

We got nothing better to do than watch every pixel come in over the 300 baud link ... Hey, I only make 200K/year, chill. I could make better money with my brains doing this in the private sector. You should be thankful I am willing to sacrifice for pennies.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21675787
United Kingdom
08/10/2012 01:54 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Amazing that your entire 'fact' is based off some christian forum, people who shun science in any way they can to begin with.
But, that is probably more accurate then what people who actually studied tell you right...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3493668


"Landover Baptist" is a PARODY site. It's a JOKE, don't you get that?

putin
nomuse (not logged in)
User ID: 2380183
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08/10/2012 02:13 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Something worthy of notice in the HP parachute photo is how the parachute and the vehicle assembly are perfectly vertical, as if they are all dropping straight down - how can this be unless it is almost touching down? It looks like a fairly high-altitude photo, taken from the assembly in orbit, so the vehicle assembly should be dragging the parachute with some horizontal velocity, the chute should be oriented diagonally from the vehicle assembly, but it all looks like a perfectly vertical drop.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Study the mission profile. The parachute is NOT deployed when the spacecraft is in orbit!
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 02:22 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
I don't know, our nerds sure were happy. They would have to have fooled every nerd working on the project (hundreds) and over a decade.
 Quoting: brent pops




What we were shown in the NASA control room was they were just told that they were the only ones not laid off by NASA (yet)
nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 02:29 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
> Have you actually looked at what the "space crane" did? Or are you just mouthing off?
> It didn't lower from orbit. It didn't lower from the top of the atmosphere. ALL IT WAS, was a few dozen feet of cable between the lander and the rover. A lander that worked, otherwise, exactly like every other soft rocket lander since Surveyor.

No, I don't watch TV or videos,
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


I haven't owned a TV since the DHTV conversion. Nor did I watch much before then. Why do you assume the only reason someone might understand a little about space sciences is because they are a drooling couch potato blindly accepting everything NBC shows them?

and I don't care about the Olympics or NASA.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


I can sympathize -- the only sports I ever followed with any regularity was the Sumo season. But, really, if you are going to go around saying "This is an obvious fake," and ESPECIALLY if you are going to make a point about having professional technical expertise to back it up, it would behoove you to know SOMETHING about the damn program you are insulting.

I only viewed some artist's renditions of things, and the "space crane" looked like a square module with rockets on 4 sides. I really don't care to study propaganda.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Ridiculous.

You don't want to study "propaganda," so instead of looking at any technical description, you go directly to some simplified general-public description.

And you want to pontificate about how you understand all the mistakes they made, but you don't consider it important to learn what it is they actually claimed to do?

Is this how you would do a consultancy? "I don't know anything about what you are doing inside the process building, but I know you are doing it all wrong."


But, assuming you know all about this, the parachute took the vehicle down from space (but then why is this called a "space crane?).
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


No, it didn't. Talk about the real project, not your imaginary version of it.


So, let's calculate. We all know what a parachute looks like for a 200lb man on earth. And they land fairly hard, and must learn how to roll when they hit ground. So, for 1 ton, 2000lbs, we would need a parachute with 10x the area. And for 1/2% of earth atmospheric density, we would need a parachute approximately with 100x more area. So, in total, we would need a parachute about with about 1000x the surface area of the ones we see men use on earth, and this is not even accounting for the fact that this is traveling about 3.5km/s or about 2+ miles/sec = 120 miles/min = 8000 miles/hour.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Hey, I can calculate too! I'm gonna calculate how many Indian elephants can fit in an ocean cargo container. The elephant is probably about 6x heavier than a person -- I'm not going to bother looking it up -- and a cargo container is about the size of two cars, I think. So now all I have to do is show off how well I can multiply and subtract, right?

Ridiculous.

You don't even have the entry speed right. Not even in the ballpark. Nor do you know what the terminal velocity is -- you seem to have forgotten about those rockets that bugged you so much earlier.

OK - this makes so much sense. At 8000 mph, we open a parachute 1000x bigger than the ones we all know. Sorry, but none of this adds up. Apologies for my foul language, but if you care to help me make sense of this, why don't you explain the basics yourself since you seem like a NASA apologist.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Fuck you on apologist. Nothing I've said is flag-waving for NASA (or for JAXA or ESA, for that matter.) I'm just pointing out your (basic) mistakes.
nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 02:36 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
To the NASA apologist I am arguing with:

I don't understand the substance of the rest of your post, but if you have intelligent facts for me to think about, I will think about them. In the meanwhile, another big red flag for me is:

Assuming Mars is at its closest to Earth, that is 55 million miles, which makes 5 minutes at the speed of light, 10 minutes round trip. I am very dubious about anyone at NASA being able to control critical landing manuevers with over a 10 minute delay between readings and instructions. All of this would have had to been done automatically, without any human input at all. I just don't buy it. I am very familiar with aircraft design and engineering, and we are just trying to make drones work at this time, with instantaneous communication between man and machine. And even so, Iranians hijacked one of them :) We can fly commercial airliners by autopilot, but we still use men to get them off the ground and land them. But you want me to believe that we can do all this fancy stuff 55 million miles away with no human guidance or input, and have all things work perfectly every time with every rover. I don't buy it. I don't think NASA's engineers are any better than those at Boeing.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Cripes. Do you have something against reading? Do you consider it a holy writ to know nothing about the project you are disparaging?

The landing was autonomous. This has been highlighted by NASA over and over again.

Heck, think of this; while NASA has been making the effort to explain to the general public about the difficulties of operating a spacecraft 7-odd light minutes away, and has been carefully explaining to that same general public good basic science about the speed of light and the scale of the solar system, what have YOU been doing? Anything to help anyone? Or just tooting your own "look at me, the guy who is smart enough to know better" horn?

And, oh...many spacecraft have been partially autonomous. It isn't entirely new.

Why don't you put forth some basic facts that easily show how it is all possible. I can't use any currect technology to show how it is possible. Nevermind the uselessness of it all. Until we can get men to live beyond the Van Allen radiation belts on a long term basis, space is just a waste of time and money, and a great scam for whoever is behind it.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Current technology? There is no new science here...what was done was theoretically possible in the Apollo era (just unlikely to be successfully engineered then.)
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 02:38 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Isn't their already 2 Nasa rovers on Mars? why is it so hard for people to believe that Nasa just put another one there that is a little bigger. Technology advances, get use to it.

nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 02:44 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Isn't their already 2 Nasa rovers on Mars? why is it so hard for people to believe that Nasa just put another one there that is a little bigger. Technology advances, get use to it.


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21676553


It isn't important WHAT they believe -- just that it contradicts what they see as the mainstream view.

Which is why some posters are arguing Curiosity is real but ridiculously shoddy (the "Why didn't they just send my new iPad up there because it would take better pictures" crowd).

Some are arguing it is faked.

Some are arguing ALL space missions are faked.

Some are arguing it is there, it works, but the Power That Be are hiding all the cool Martian ruins and furry Martian bipeds from us.

Some are arguing it is there, it works, and anyone can SEE the cool Martian ruins and the furry Martian bipeds in the photographs provided.

It doesn't matter, as long as there is a conspiracy somewhere -- and the poster is one of the rare people who saw through it.
Objective guy
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08/10/2012 03:01 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Funny how people who belive we went on the moon and sent a rover on Mars never present counter arguments to those who don't believe it...

All their arguments are : you're stupid, you're insane, absurd, prepostrous, etc.

I, for one, don't believe that Neil Armstrong or any other member of the Apollo missions went on the moon... if you inform yourself objectively, you cannot ignore the many proofs and inconsitencies against NASA stories.

I strongly suspect that Curiosity is another hoax of the same type, but I still don't have enough knowledge and information to be sure. Although, NASA is currently testing a moon landing vehicle at Cape Kennedy and after it crashed and burned, they said it was normal and it would take many testing before they get it right... If today, in 2012, they are not yet capable to control that vehicle (in the well known environment of earth) I have a hard time believing that they did so more than 40 years ago on the moon and that they perfectly landed Curiosity on MARS...

History demonstrates that governments have always lied to the population in order to accomplished certain goals this has always been true and probably always will be...
Engineer
User ID: 694654
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08/10/2012 03:07 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
No, you are not pointing out my mistakes. You are failing to see that the propaganda the media puts out is full of mistakes and contradictions. If you read my posts, you would see that, because I pointed it out with references.

I am explaining things easily and clearly with round numbers. I don't need to waste my time with nonsense, I already have ideas of what is possible and what is not possible. All that was required to pull this off was an automated program to fill the displays at NASA with "data". These rovers roll a few km in the course of their lifetime, and that could all be filmed and photographed in 1 day, and then pieced out to the public in little parts over years.

When I study an engineering problem with foundations that have not already been proven possible, I don't go down a nonsense path and do 1000 calculations. I get and idea of what is possible and not possible by doing basic calculations in my head, just as I did here. And despite wrong/contradictory info in the MSM, the basic facts are:

13,000mph -> 0 in 7 minutes with only a
parachute a little bigger than the type
a man uses on Earth (50ft in diameter
one source said - not very big)?
I already showed you how to calculate
what it would take to land 2000lbs
with a parachute in the Martian atmosphere
so that it would hit as fast as a man on Earth,
which would be a parachute with 1000-2000x
the area of a standard parachute for a man
on Earth, way more than 50ft in diameter.

I already showed that it would take fuel
several times the size of the payload to
slow the payload down from 13,000mph in
the Martian atmosphere - just as a rockets
fuel weighs more than the rest of the rocket,
same for going the opposite direction from
13,000mph -> 0. It just fails the common
sense test - I can't make it more clear.
It doesn't warrant deeper investigation.

There simply is no way for 2000++lbs to go
from 13,000mph to zero in a near vaccuum in 7
minutes using a stupid 50ft parachute. Also,
consider that the landing assembly wants to
speed up as it's orbit tightens, like a
figure skater. Where do you think all that
energy is going? How is it being dissipated?
Heat? That's one hot parachute then.

You are not addressing any facts or logic
I put forth. Nor can you show me any
technology that can do all of this
automatically. Why didn't we just let the
Space Shuttle drop down with a parachute?
Why bother with heat tiles? SO SILLY.

I don't want to make things
too complicated for people to understand.
It isn't necessary. That's a propagada
tactic: to lose people's sight of the forest
by examining every tree cell.

We are not so advanced. Nor were we advanced
enough to go to the moon in the 1960s. I saw
the Apollo module at the Smithsonian when I was
a kid - AND IT WAS A F_ING JOKE! It was like
2 Aluminum cans with coconut shells between,
totally stripped out - not a single instrument
or placard in the thing, maybe 1/2 inch thick,
maybe a few loose wires.

I looked for some sign of technology in it, some
sign of rugged durability - and it was crappier
than a napalmed 1969 VW Beetle. It was just
garbage. And if you saw it, looked inside it,
you would be saying the same things. I have
seen their work 1st hand. IT'S A JOKE!

And you certainly could have never sat or moved
around in that thing with a spacesuit + backpack.
PEOPLE ARE STUPID - AND THEY KNOW THAT.
THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING!
There is NOTHING you won't believe if people
in the MSM tell you something is so.
Engineer
User ID: 694654
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08/10/2012 03:29 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Why is it NASA won't let people see the old Apollo modules? National Security? NO. It's because people would laugh at them. I don't buy any of the rover nonsense because we don't have sufficient braking devices to land gently on another planet. We can't dissipate that much energy.

Don't you think we would put parachutes in satellites if it was possible? To avoid space junk and possible death from falling debris? To examine the units at their end of life and learn things from them?

The programs are used for revenue and mass psychology, to make the population feel good about something as they slave away in jobs they mostly hate, if they have one at all. Bread & Circus for the unclean masses, keeping their heads up as they drown.
nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 03:48 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
The parachute doesn't look any bigger than one a man would use on Earth, assuming the vehicle assembly is like an SUV.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Diameter of the supersonic parachute according to NASA is 16 meters. Diameter of the T10 I used to jump under is 11 meters. The T10 was rated for 160 kg and would reduce fall speed to about 7 m/s.

Ignoring the deacceleration phase for the moment, the static point is a 3,354 kg package (rover, skycrane, aeroshell and fuel) moving at 100 m/s.

As a first approximation, air resistance is per velocity squared. Parachutes a wee bit more complex than that, tho -- I don't have the time or energy this morning to look up how you model one!

But...knowing this is pie-in-the-sky, not even a zeroth-level calculation... if you assume 2.1 x the area of a T10 and 1/50th of the resistance (aka we are just assuming sea level here), and simply (if not farcically) using the square of the difference in final velocity (100-7, 8,649 times), solving for weight in 1G = 58,000 kg.

Obviously things do not scale quite so simply or so linearly, but as a sanity check, the above says it is plausible.

Incidentally, the same page I got the above for the parachute states that out of that 3,354 kg package, 390 kg is propellant.



I wonder why NASA doesn't release all the technical details such as what happened when, and how fast are things moving, and at what height are things happening, and why isn't their a constant video stream of the entire event? Why do we get everything piecemeal?
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Congratulations on at least starting to look.


With a chute so small (not the 1000-2000x size that would allow the vehicle assembly to hit the surface as hard as a parachuting man on Earth), that thing would still be going almost 1000 miles per hour down to the surface, and I highly doubt the "space crane" (which evidently has nothing to do with space) had enough fuel and power to stop over 2000lbs traveling at almost 1000mph. I am not seeing anything that makes much engineering sense.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


You are right. It DOESN'T make sense if the requirement is that the rover perform a good PLF at 7 m/s.

Good thing that wasn't the plan. That 390 kg of propellant mentioned? Assuming the total weight of the spacecraft is still 3,354 kg at this point (it isn't, because the parachute is released and the aeroshell dropped), and using an isp of 234s for the monopropellent hydrazine as used in the MLE thrusters....well, I'm sure you can calculate the available delta-v from there!
nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 04:13 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
No, you are not pointing out my mistakes. You are failing to see that the propaganda the media puts out is full of mistakes and contradictions. If you read my posts, you would see that, because I pointed it out with references.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


"The Media?"

If you want to point out where the media gets science wrong, I will gladly follow you there.

I was under the impression you wanted to talk about the ACTUAL spacecraft.


I am explaining things easily and clearly with round numbers. I don't need to waste my time with nonsense, I already have ideas of what is possible and what is not possible.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


I love me some back-of-the-envelope too. But there's a difference between assuming a spherical cow, and assuming that cows can fly. If you are going to do a ballpark figure you at least have to be in the same ballpark.


All that was required to pull this off was an automated program to fill the displays at NASA with "data". These rovers roll a few km in the course of their lifetime, and that could all be filmed and photographed in 1 day, and then pieced out to the public in little parts over years.

 Quoting: Engineer 694654


I think you underestimate the size and difficulty of the data generation, but I agree that it would be possible. Generating imagery that is consistent with real-world optics, for instance, is computationally expensive, and I'd like at least five years to do it. But it could be done.

Similar constraints exist for the various mechanisms of the spacecraft itself; you can't fill in random numbers; you have to have decent models. But it can be done.

What would be much more difficult is seeding into your data new discoveries in exo-geology, which would then be discussed and analyzed and broken down by the top people in the field across the world, AND would remain consistent with anything discovered over all of the decades you intend to keep the hoax going -- against every observation from other probes, earth-bound telescopes, Martian meteorites, etc.


When I study an engineering problem with foundations that have not already been proven possible, I don't go down a nonsense path and do 1000 calculations. I get and idea of what is possible and not possible by doing basic calculations in my head, just as I did here.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


But you haven't studied. That's my basic problem with your work. You have made unsubstantiated assumptions about the mission profile. You are, in essentials, looking at a 767 and asking how it could possibly drive itself through the water with underwing engines.



And despite wrong/contradictory info in the MSM, the basic facts are:

13,000mph -> 0 in 7 minutes with only a
parachute a little bigger than the type
a man uses on Earth (50ft in diameter
one source said - not very big)?
I already showed you how to calculate
what it would take to land 2000lbs
with a parachute in the Martian atmosphere
so that it would hit as fast as a man on Earth,
which would be a parachute with 1000-2000x
the area of a standard parachute for a man
on Earth, way more than 50ft in diameter.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Wrong. Over and over, I've told you that the parachute is not used to slow from the velocity of primary re-entry. A moment of looking at descriptions of the actual spacecraft would show you this.

And it has also been explained that the terminal part of the parachute phase is NOT zero velocity. Not even close to it.

I already showed that it would take fuel
several times the size of the payload to
slow the payload down from 13,000mph in
the Martian atmosphere - just as a rockets
fuel weighs more than the rest of the rocket,
same for going the opposite direction from
13,000mph -> 0. It just fails the common
sense test - I can't make it more clear.
It doesn't warrant deeper investigation.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Why are you requiring each INDIVIDUAL system to carry the entire burden? What happened to the parachute you were just talking about? How are we suddenly back to full orbital velocity?

Does it not register that there are five different processes going on at different phases of the re-entry, and each of them accounts for part of the velocity change (and each operates within a different regime of local velocity and air pressure?)

There simply is no way for 2000++lbs to go
from 13,000mph to zero in a near vaccuum in 7
minutes using a stupid 50ft parachute. Also,
consider that the landing assembly wants to
speed up as it's orbit tightens, like a
figure skater. Where do you think all that
energy is going? How is it being dissipated?
Heat? That's one hot parachute then.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


Weird way to describe gravitational acceleration.

And...wow....you get so damned close, and then you fall away again. You'd think you'd never heard of any spacecraft performing re-entry, either on Mars or here on Earth.

You are not addressing any facts or logic
I put forth. Nor can you show me any
technology that can do all of this
automatically. Why didn't we just let the
Space Shuttle drop down with a parachute?
Why bother with heat tiles? SO SILLY.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


You are using bad facts. That makes the logic immaterial; the work can only be "not even wrong."

And again you get so close, then shy away as if afraid of making a realization. Something that is clearly stated in every description I've seen. Something I've alluded to in every single post I've made here.


I don't want to make things
too complicated for people to understand.
It isn't necessary. That's a propagada
tactic: to lose people's sight of the forest
by examining every tree cell.

We are not so advanced. Nor were we advanced
enough to go to the moon in the 1960s. I saw
the Apollo module at the Smithsonian when I was
a kid - AND IT WAS A F_ING JOKE! It was like
2 Aluminum cans with coconut shells between,
totally stripped out - not a single instrument
or placard in the thing, maybe 1/2 inch thick,
maybe a few loose wires.

I looked for some sign of technology in it, some
sign of rugged durability - and it was crappier
than a napalmed 1969 VW Beetle. It was just
garbage. And if you saw it, looked inside it,
you would be saying the same things. I have
seen their work 1st hand. IT'S A JOKE!

And you certainly could have never sat or moved
around in that thing with a spacesuit + backpack.
PEOPLE ARE STUPID - AND THEY KNOW THAT.
THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING!
There is NOTHING you won't believe if people
in the MSM tell you something is so.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


We seem to have seen different spacecraft. The last time I was on the Mall, I found the A11 CM was in surprisingly shoddy shape. Dirty, too.

But there is something else I found -- which you would have found if you had a few more minutes on your visit. And that is that the construction methods and quality are substantially similar to the other craft on display there. That is...to aircraft that I am fairly sure you DO believe were fully capable of flying.

The Apollo CM in no way stood out as being simpler, cruder, or less robust than those quite flyable aircraft.



Oh, and by the way...the PLSS was not used in the CM. Idiot.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 19852008
United States
08/10/2012 04:25 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
They say they used a parachute to land a 1 ton vehicle. Good luck!!!

Satellite Image Of Mars Rover Curiosity Shows Parachute Deployed
[link to www.huffingtonpost.com]

"The highest atmospheric density on Mars is equal to the density found 35 km (21 miles or 115,000 ft) above the Earth's surface. The resulting maximum surface pressure is only 0.6% of that of the Earth (101.3 kPa)." - wikipedia
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Mars has 0.6% of the atmosphere of earth. Call it no atmosphere, a vacuum. Parachutes won't fucking work. Am I stupid? My SAT scores were 95th percentile (highest you can get.) Am I the only one in the world to notice this? I feel like I'm in a vacuum (because no one can hear you yelling in a vacuum.) Just shoot me. Is there one fucking high school science teacher in the entire country who can back me up? But, ooooh... it's NASA, ooooh... it's JPL, they're smarter than everybody else. Well fuck them!!! They are fucking lying and tell them I said so. A $2.5 billion program, but I can't get a fucking job anywhere. And who cares if there's life on Mars, let alone protein building blocks? I sure don't fucking care. I can't even find intelligent life on earth. Do you know what I could do with $2.5 billion? Think of the women I could be dating.
 Quoting: sanchezal28 13460809


Well the 95th percentile must be much lower in USA compared to UK judging by your lack of knowledge and intelligence mr can't find a job.

The parachute was for initial deaceleration, the final landing was by sky crane. The parachute would have been very large as well due to the lower pressure of the martian atmosphere compared to Earth
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21475301


Parachute won't work as well in low density atmosphere but it doesn't need to. Gravity is less too. If it weights a ton on earth's surface, it weighs only about 10% of that on Mars' surface.

[link to www.universetoday.com]

remember: gravitational force (weight) = G m1 m2 / r^2 . So weight of a given object is proportional to planetary mass. Some adjustment (weight increase) needed though because Mars is smaller, so surface is closer to center of mass of the planet.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1177012
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08/10/2012 04:32 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Americans are weird. They are capable of putting a car on the Moon yet at the same time they have people who claim:

"Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"

[link to www.landoverbaptist.net]
 Quoting: Dutch Girl


You really believe these lunatics?
nomuse (not logged in)
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08/10/2012 04:39 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Parachute won't work as well in low density atmosphere but it doesn't need to. Gravity is less too. If it weights a ton on earth's surface, it weighs only about 10% of that on Mars' surface.

[link to www.universetoday.com]

remember: gravitational force (weight) = G m1 m2 / r^2 . So weight of a given object is proportional to planetary mass. Some adjustment (weight increase) needed though because Mars is smaller, so surface is closer to center of mass of the planet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19852008


Yah...but works out to more like .38 G, not .10

The "engineer" is still ignoring the first phase of re-entry -- where the majority of the velocity was absorbed by the Martian atmosphere.
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 04:43 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Parachute won't work as well in low density atmosphere but it doesn't need to. Gravity is less too. If it weights a ton on earth's surface, it weighs only about 10% of that on Mars' surface.

[link to www.universetoday.com]

remember: gravitational force (weight) = G m1 m2 / r^2 . So weight of a given object is proportional to planetary mass. Some adjustment (weight increase) needed though because Mars is smaller, so surface is closer to center of mass of the planet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19852008


Yah...but works out to more like .38 G, not .10

The "engineer" is still ignoring the first phase of re-entry -- where the majority of the velocity was absorbed by the Martian atmosphere.
 Quoting: nomuse (not logged in) 2380183


How is it that high?

You can't take a adjustment for the distance from center (which would be about 2^2 = 4) because gravity is not all from the center of mass. It should be clear without doing integration that for any kind of reasonable mass distribution, the adjustment is less than x4 .
Psych

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08/10/2012 04:44 PM

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 Quoting: Dutch Girl


That is a satire website. A pretty hilarious one I might add.

But I am sure some people indeed believe it was a hoax. chuckle
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 04:45 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Why is it NASA won't let people see the old Apollo modules? National Security? NO. It's because people would laugh at them. I don't buy any of the rover nonsense because we don't have sufficient braking devices to land gently on another planet. We can't dissipate that much energy.

Don't you think we would put parachutes in satellites if it was possible? To avoid space junk and possible death from falling debris? To examine the units at their end of life and learn things from them?

The programs are used for revenue and mass psychology, to make the population feel good about something as they slave away in jobs they mostly hate, if they have one at all. Bread & Circus for the unclean masses, keeping their heads up as they drown.
 Quoting: Engineer 694654


I'm sure I saw something like a LEM at the Smithsonian. Wasn't it a real one?
Anonymous Coward
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08/10/2012 04:53 PM
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Re: "Curiosity Mars "landing" BIGGEST HOAX EVER!!!"
Parachute won't work as well in low density atmosphere but it doesn't need to. Gravity is less too. If it weights a ton on earth's surface, it weighs only about 10% of that on Mars' surface.

[link to www.universetoday.com]

remember: gravitational force (weight) = G m1 m2 / r^2 . So weight of a given object is proportional to planetary mass. Some adjustment (weight increase) needed though because Mars is smaller, so surface is closer to center of mass of the planet.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19852008


Yah...but works out to more like .38 G, not .10

The "engineer" is still ignoring the first phase of re-entry -- where the majority of the velocity was absorbed by the Martian atmosphere.
 Quoting: nomuse (not logged in) 2380183


How is it that high?

You can't take a adjustment for the distance from center (which would be about 2^2 = 4) because gravity is not all from the center of mass. It should be clear without doing integration that for any kind of reasonable mass distribution, the adjustment is less than x4 .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19852008


Heh. Been a while since I've done this, but I think the approximation for surface gravity assumes a point source. Sure, there are local mass concentrations -- you can map them on Earth, and they are important enough to mess with your orbit around the Moon, but for a first approximation, use a point.

Mars is about half the diameter of Earth, and if remember correctly, about 1/6 the mass. So multiply 1G by 4 and divide by 6 and you end up around .6 G. Which is close enough for zero significant figures.




Still, take-home is that the Martian surface gravity is less than that of Earth. Not a magnitude less, tho -- so you still need to get within a magnitude of the right answer even when you don't include a correction for Martian gravity.

(If I recall correctly, the atmospheric gradient is also different on Mars. I believe it is deeper, and this is true for all lighter worlds; this means that the correction for altitude is smaller (aka the pressure falls more slowly in proportion to distance.))

But I could be mis-remembering.
Swinging on Spirals

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curiositykill
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!"

We do not Die, We Awaken to the Dream that We Lived.

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