Socialism: A solution to America’s recession

Wow! GLP is the wrong place to state an opinion like that!

Haven't you ever read the posts by the owner himself?

I think a hybrid of socialism & capitalism is the answer (not my idea, a group I was in communique with thought of it)

socialism is/will fail again because it is virtually a lowest common denominator scenario. The people in the party live in luxury while the plebs work the jobs. And there's no incentive to work hard or with innovation, why should you? You are going to get paid peanuts regardless of how hard you work (or dont work)

As for capitalism, well dont necessarily ask me; ask any poor Joe (or Joanne) in the USA who's life has been turned to shit by the latest GFC.

But capitalism DOES have its advantages over socialism: if you work hard & with innovation you get good rewards.

capitalism has failed many more times than socialism/

Nationalism is the real solution.

Socialism is what's causing the depression.

what about Feudalism? it seems to match better in the dark ages we live in

1) Capitalism has never failed. The so-called 'failures' of capitalism are all the result of government intervention, particularly the panics. Read Rothbard's History of Banking in America and his book on the Fed.

2) Socialism can't work, because an economy needs a pricing mechanism geared to economic fundamentals, and this is possible only under two conditions: (a) hard commodity based money, like gold or silver; (b) complete freedom in the exchange of money, i.e. a completely free market. To the extent that the monetary system is interfered with, the economic will become inflexible and corrupt. The result will be such things as panics.

3) The worst possible example of (2) is the creation of a central bank which has the exclusive right to issue soft money unbacked by a commodity, and no restrictions on its printing. I.e. the Federal Reserve. And socialists all called for a central bank of this sort.

4) Part of the reason the American people want these things is they don't understand the value of capitalism. America hasn't been capitalist in the original and true sense for over 100 years (probably before the Civil War). The big changes during and after the Civil War were basically government involvement in big business and banking - these crushed the country. The other reason, of course, is that the American people are inundated with socialist ideals from birth. No wonder they like the institutions. They no longer understand the nature and value of freedom.

5) Even if the people want this stuff, that says nothing about the true value of socialism.

Oh you've got to be joking!!! Now I've heard everything!!

The only thing that SAVED capitalism in the recent GFC WAS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. Remember? The bailouts!!?!?

OH which, by the way while we're on the subject, was pure SOCIALISM.

The elite have the perfect mix now, capitalism when times are boom, socialism when times are bust!

But don't ask my opinion, ask the poor taxpayers in YOUR country who bailed out the banks with American TAX DOLLARS!!
Did they get a slice of the pie when times were boom? Of course not!! That would be socialist!! Boom times are capitalist times!!

Oh, & by the way, what about the multi-million dollar elephant in the room? THOSE BONUSES!!! They were supposed to be paid for by profits, but guess what??? THERE WERE NO PROFITS??? Tax dollars again!!

Are you sure you didn't read this baloney in Atlas shrugged?

You can call horseshit caviar, but it will still be horseshit, & that is what your book is doing: calling horseshit caviar!

Tell that to the Chinese, Russian, north Korean,Myanmar etc peasants and before you say anything communism is socialism with a different name

Absolutely, too bad most here dont understand the terms they use or the concept of cause and effect.
A nation is for the protection and mutual defense of people who have similar beliefs and goals in common. Without that, you dont have a nation or a future as one

The UK tried socialism in the 60's and 70's and where did it get us ? Government and unions who thought that there was a bottomless pit of cash to spend, I mean government departments didn't have budgets they just held out their hands for more cash and where did it come from ? Us the people, tax rates of up to 98% for those prepared to try and earn something from their graft.

The net result, people take their ideas etc where they won't be abused for it and you don't have to hold out the begging bowl to other nations for money, sorry but capitalism isn't ideal but it's a damn sight better than socialism communism, Marxism
If I have an idea for a new product etc and slog my arse off to achieve it, why should someone who hasn't grafted, thought about the idea and turned it into a reality take a share ? You have to remember that socialism is just a way to spend someone else's money.

And to answer your statement, that's why it doesn't work, read Animal Farm, all are equal, yet some think they are more equal than others

Last Edited by F F S on 02/03/2013 08:01 AM

Socialism = debt = slavery.

Here in the UK taxes are fucking ridiculous, VAT (20% per item), council tax £150 per 3 months per household, income tax 22% of your pay.

Fuck this shit, how am I meant to save and start a life of my own? I'm working to live just like in a communist country, not working to better my condition because my money is being taken from me.

Fuck you and your socialism, I'm not being made a debt slave because some douche thinks letting the state do everything is the best option.

Until you understand the motivation of those that follow the communist manifesto you dont understand the final destination of 'socialism'.
Socialism is about creating slaves for a small ruling class living in luxury

And what is capitalism in the same terms?

Read my post above, having an idea, product and making it a reality, without some lazy arse fucker thinking they deserve a slice of it and doing fuck all, how's that ?

Dude, I commend your efforts but this crowd has been the victim of 60+ years of social programing. Misconceptions about socialism here are rampant. Some people would rather lie in a ditch dying than take help from government. Cold war propaganda did it's job well.

Both systems sucks. Either your going be ruled by the wealthy or your going be ruled by the wealthy but with less freedoms.

Sure we have to learn from our past mistakes but isms are a stupid way to think about it.

We have influences from all sorts of isms such as socialism, capitalism, etc that now it is impossible to classify our society model as anything but an unknown, undiscovered ideology.

But if you take help from the government, where did they get it from ? Read my posts above

Money and products dont just appear. Although I'm sure some people seem to think they do

And the mantras are: Dog eat dog, & greed is good.

. Lol. It's apparent to anyone with half a brain that capitalism is eating itself alive and the planet with it. At this point corruption has become synonymous with capitalism. Go back to your dreamworld where butterflies and rainbows shoot out the arse of Monsanto ceo's.

No it's not and you know it. your going to put Iceland and sweden in the same boat as north Korea ? It's obvious that you are never going to be rational about this topic.

All I see is governments propping up private business, that isn't free enterprise. So until you pull your head out of your ass and understand it's THE STATE that is fucking with the market, stop parroting that 'capitalism has failed' shit.

Parroting! Don't make me laugh ditto head.

"The only thing that SAVED capitalism in the recent GFC WAS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. Remember? The bailouts!!?!?"

False. Capitalism is a system of free market interaction. Capitalism wasn't saved by the bailouts; rather, the banking cartel was saved. And the point I was making was that the only reason the financial collapse happened in the first place was because of government intervention in the economy. Specifically, massive financial leveraging was possible because of banking cartelization, starting in the 1890s and speeding up after the creation of the Fed in 1913, and a huge bubble in the housing market due to Fed manipulation of the interest rate and government incentives, through manipulative tax policies and action on the banks, to push workers towards home ownership.

"The elite have the perfect mix now, capitalism when times are boom, socialism when times are bust!"

This makes no sense. What do you think capitalism is? Capitalism doesn't exist during times of bust and magically disappear when things go bad. Rather, the system or corporation dominance, bank cartelization, and general fascism exist all the time. This is the problem - we don't have a capitalistic system of free trade, but a fascist corporate-government monopoly. Read Rothbard's books. I'm not mocking you, I'm seriously recommending you read his stuff. It will open your mind.

"But don't ask my opinion, ask the poor taxpayers in YOUR country who bailed out the banks with American TAX DOLLARS!!
Did they get a slice of the pie when times were boom? Of course not!! That would be socialist!! Boom times are capitalist times!!"

I'm not an American. I'm Scottish, but live in the States. And actually the tax payers didn't bail out the banks. The Fed did by printing money. The 'tax payer bailout' was simply a manipulative tool used by government to justify/blame the other side.

"Oh, & by the way, what about the multi-million dollar elephant in the room? THOSE BONUSES!!! They were supposed to be paid for by profits, but guess what??? THERE WERE NO PROFITS??? Tax dollars again!!"

None of this has anything to do with capitalism. The situation is worse than you describe: almost all the money given to the banks was stored, rather than used. The alleged intention of the bailout was to increase liquidity - the movement of money. But in fact it didn't move, and that was never the intent.

"Are you sure you didn't read this baloney in Atlas shrugged?"

Much of the bailout business is in AS, which I've read. I don't think you have, and if you have, you misunderstood it. Rand doesn't ever praise the current system, and spent her life denouncing almost every act of government. She opposed the Fed, bailouts, banking cartelization, corporate monopolies, fascism, and everything that caused the banking failure and the present system. This is why I say that I think you misunderstand what capitalism is. Even Marx didn't think capitalism is how you seem to describe it. Marx had other reasons for opposing capitalism. What you're describing is the tired and false equation of capitalism with the present status quo, which is actually fascism. Now, I understand why you'd think that. For one, the Republicans call themselves capitalists but support the status quo, and so are actually fascists, like the Democrats. But real capitalism, and capitalism as Marx described it, isn't the status quo. America hasn't had a capitalist system since before the Civil War.

Well people are reasonably scared they could be baited into accepting a hellish situation and end up like the Russians,Eastern Euros, Chinese etc. The problem is people that don't wish to accept the known patterns of history. Socialism has always lead to the same, and when socialism mixes with capitalism it ends up broke and vulnerable to the same circumstances.

What's exploitative about trading value for value?

I feel your pain. I'm Scottish and left for the States at 24. But the financial collapse happened a week after I arrived :P

^^^This^^^

And socialism fails when they run out of other people's money to spend. Thatcher was so right about that. What usually follows is communism and that has a way of "correcting" the problem by simply eliminating the excess population.

Really , I sometimes can't believe how simple conservative's world view is. 'Everything would work so wonderfully if the market was just left alone!'
Well that's exactly what has been happening since Reagan ,deregulation. Now all our jobs are overseas and bad lending practice nearly tanked our economy.

The fat cats aren't a product of capitalism. They're a product of government interference in the economy, i.e. the use of force to prop up cartels and corporations. For example, corporations couldn't even exist in a capitalist society of the true sort, because they require government law to allow the existence of 'corporate persons'. Read Rothbard and Mises for the statement of what capitalism is (Rothbard's Man, Economy, State is the best, but its really long. You can read his works on the Fed and banking to get a sense of capitalist critiques of the current system). I'm not mocking you or anything - I'm actually trying to help. Capitalism isn't the status quo, and isn't what you've been told. Even Marx agrees. Marx actually started with a mistaken premise, namely, the labor theory of value. That was the same mistake Adam Smith and the classical economists made.