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The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 194596
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09/26/2007 01:22 PM
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The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
What's funny is how solar and wind resources are so little used and promoted. Everything is petroleum based for a reason, so that fewer levers need to be pulled to control the world economy. If solar and wind took off in a big way, people would be free-er from fossil fuels that everyone frets about mining. The population "problem" is intentionally created by not using free energy and refusing to invest in things like desalination plants (unlimited water with an up front investment) and solar panels (unlimited energy with an up front investment, and few moving parts). If American homes were highly encouraged to require just 10% of their energy from solar/wind, can you imagine the savings?! If LA would spend 10 billion on a huge desalination plant, they would save 100 billion in 10 years in 1)legal costs fighting states for water, 2)government costs administering and enforcing "low-water-usage" fixtures 3)EPA legal hassles with tapping into desperately low water sources, 4)physical piping and pumping costs getting water from remote areas, etc. The list could go on to 100 items. Why has not LA considered this solution? Because "water shortage" is another control lever to argue for depopulation, and another political lever for control of the people. California is DESPERATE for water, and the irony is, they sit by the largest source of water on the planet which simply needs to be cleaned more than normal (is some cases probably less than normal), but won't use it because desalination plants are costly! When does it become cost effective? Well, they are way past that point, so the problem must be political. I ramble.
Duncan Kunz

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09/26/2007 01:26 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
"What's funny is how solar and wind resources are so little used and promoted. Everything is petroleum based for a reason, so that fewer levers need to be pulled to control the world economy."

Wind turbines and photovoltaics are fine, but they're simply not cost-effective.

The only cost-effective way we can replace burning hydrocarbons (oil, coal, etc.) -- at least right now -- is with nuclear fission. And, of course, nuclear power has its own drawbacks, although I don't think they're nearly as bad as burning hydrocarbons.

"...won't use it because desalination plants are costly! When does it become cost effective? Well, they are way past that point, so the problem must be political."

I disagree. Certainly there is a political aspect to the Californicators stealing my Colorado River water (I live in Arizona), but the costs for developing a system that large (remember, there're almost 40 million Californicators) would be hideously expensive, just to design and build, and the amount of eletricity needed to run the RO (or the amount of land so support solar-thermal evaporation ponds) would be billions if not trillions of dollars.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 194596
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09/26/2007 01:30 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
No, I'm talking about desalination for water sources for domestic and industiral usage and a meager 10% solar panel power per household. That's very doable and saves a ton of energy and resources. Each person can do his own solar power per house.
Moose and Squirrel
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09/26/2007 01:33 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
You have a good point, when the NWO wants to pull a another downturn to steal everything, it will have a hard time for those portions of the economy that are self sufficient. Solar panels might also compete cheaply with $200 a barrel oil, and put these bums in their place.

But they probably already have some chemtrails developed to destroy solar panels. Desalinization plants run by solar panels would be at risk. This economy reminds me of the Simpsons "Mr. Burns," always dreaming of a way to blot out the sun.
Duncan Kunz

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09/26/2007 01:35 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
No, I'm talking about desalination for water sources for domestic and industiral usage and a meager 10% solar panel power per household. That's very doable and saves a ton of energy and resources. Each person can do his own solar power per house.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 194596


I worked as a systems engineer for a company called Solavolt International in the late eighties. Given that the cost of a PV system (including balance of systems -- support structures, wiring, batteries, voltage conditioning circuitry) is still around $7/Watt, and given that the lead-acid batteries need to be replaced every 3-5 years, and given that the systems need to be adjusted and monitored, you're expecting that the bulk of people will take on the additional costs, learning curve, and time to operate it (forget about the cost of 12 vdc appliances), I just don't think it'd be feasible.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
dfsa]
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09/26/2007 01:35 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
also, they have been sabotaging
some of the proponents to hasten
the demise of the rival empire

and some of these might be allowed for a while
after the varmints seize power
but then it'll be as corrupt as ever
a
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 01:38 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
[link to i178.photobucket.com]

everything old is new again
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 01:38 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
No, I'm talking about desalination for water sources for domestic and industiral usage and a meager 10% solar panel power per household. That's very doable and saves a ton of energy and resources. Each person can do his own solar power per house.


I worked as a systems engineer for a company called Solavolt International in the late eighties. Given that the cost of a PV system (including balance of systems -- support structures, wiring, batteries, voltage conditioning circuitry) is still around $7/Watt, and given that the lead-acid batteries need to be replaced every 3-5 years, and given that the systems need to be adjusted and monitored, you're expecting that the bulk of people will take on the additional costs, learning curve, and time to operate it (forget about the cost of 12 vdc appliances), I just don't think it'd be feasible.
 Quoting: Duncan Kunz


I'll tell you what's not feasbile, $100 per barrel of oil. If people want to be free, they better get on with that learning curve!
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 01:45 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
When solar panels can be printed on a plastic roll the cost of solar electricity will plumet - untill then we are stuck with fragile glass based panels. Solar water heating is very doable now though.
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 01:51 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
The desalinization idea is one that has fluttered around my foggy old brain as well. I've never taken the time to look into the costs involved.

With that being said I can say that I have experience working around desalinization plants from my time in the Navy. Those systems weren't highly efficient, we are talking about designs that were several decades old at the time and I was in during the 80's/early 90's, but I have still wondered why desalinization has not been widely promoted as a way of off-setting water issues associated with growth, draught and waste.
ERIC
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09/26/2007 02:00 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
When solar panels can be printed on a plastic roll the cost of solar electricity will plumet - untill then we are stuck with fragile glass based panels. Solar water heating is very doable now though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 302737



They do make flexible solar cells...

www.nanosolar.com/products.htm
Duncan Kunz

User ID: 10104
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09/26/2007 04:25 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
I'll tell you what's not feasbile, $100 per barrel of oil. If people want to be free, they better get on with that learning curve!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 203352


You're absolutely correct. Something that is unable to compete with cheap oil becomes more competitive against expensive oil.

This is why I believe that the price of gasoline should be at $4 or $5/gallon -- it'd make alternative transportation approaches a lot more feasible.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Duncan Kunz

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09/26/2007 04:30 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
When solar panels can be printed on a plastic roll the cost of solar electricity will plumet - untill then we are stuck with fragile glass based panels.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 302737


Remember that the cost of the array is only about half of the total system cost. Since PV only works in sunlight, you need a lot of batteries to store the electricity for those times when the sun isn't shining, such as nights, overcast/rainy days, etc. And this means that the PV array needs to be big enough to provide all the daytime electricity you'd need plus providing enough electricity to charge and maintain your battery bank.

Solar water heating is very doable now though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 302737


True. Even without energy credits or other means of government subsidies, individual hot water heaters are an excellent investment, especially here in the Sonoran Desert.

One of the biggest barriers to this kind of alternative energy, though, is the plethora of HOAs which do not allow such installations on aesthetic grounds.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 04:30 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
I have always thought a geostationary lens focused on a small area of sea could easily produce evaporation for use in precipating fresh water cheaply considering it could be free forever after the initial outlay
Duncan Kunz

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09/26/2007 04:57 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
I have always thought a geostationary lens focused on a small area of sea could easily produce evaporation for use in precipating fresh water cheaply considering it could be free forever after the initial outlay
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 211240


A geostationary lens would have to be at a very high altitude (~35,786 km above the equator, so that its orbital period matches the sidereal day). Popping a satellite to that orbit is not that big of a deal, since we do it all the time, but your lens would have to have a focal length of (obviously) 35,786 km. If you wanted the focus to be, say, ten meters, the radius of the lens would have to be (hold on to your hat) the (reciprocal of the refractive index minus one) times the following:

(1/Rsub1) - (1/Rsub2) + [(n-1)d] all over (n Rsub1 Rsub2)

Where the two Rs are the curvature radii and n is the refractive index, which I assume would be 1.0003 so the reciprocal of n-1 would be a biggie, like 3,333.33....

In other words, given a quick pencil-whip, the lens would have to have a radius of about 96 km. I cannot even comprehend the engineering difficulties in getting the equipment up there to make, and then stabilize the lens, and I would have to be a lot more drunk thatn I am now to even discuss the ground-based infrastructure requirements!

A much better approach, in my opinion, would be to use the temperature delta of deep water versus shallow water to run a stirling cycle engine which could generate enough electriticy to run a reverse osmosis (RO) system. side benefits would be that you could also crack the water into hydrogen for additional power, if you could figure out a cheap way to get it back to shore.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward
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09/26/2007 05:03 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
Economy of scale....it applies even to solar power.
Duncan Kunz

User ID: 23141
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09/26/2007 06:43 PM
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Re: The "Population Problem" ...... Desalination Plants needed, but never proposed.... Solar panels hardly ever promoted....
Economy of scale....it applies even to solar power.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 181774

Certainly it does. but for economies of scale to take off, ther has to be a demand for the product, and this is exactly the problem a lot of technologies have:

As soon as we can sell a million of them, the price will drop.

As soon as the price drops, we'll sell a million of them.


The best we can hope for is an incremental lowering of price along with an incremental increase in demand. At some TBD point, the economies of scale will kick in, just as they did for, say, personal computers, and awayyyy we'll go!

Unfortunately, that "kick-in" may take a decade or more....
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?





GLP