Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. | |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 802335 Australia 10/25/2009 07:10 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Id like to see your scriptures that CLEARLY SAY it takes place before any of this. Bet you cant find ONE.. I can find over 20 that sat CLEARLY when it takes place..no conjecture..no twisting words..just clearly and simply saying WHEN it takes place. But..you first..seeing as you think its FACT! |
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Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 07:15 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump... Quoting: tkwasnySorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone. Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation? "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:15 |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 802337 Israel 10/25/2009 07:18 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Jesus said WATCH! BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR! IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib) OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib) OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath) OR AT MORNING!(post-trib) THERE FORE! WATCH!!! |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 07:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Jesus said WATCH! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802337BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR! IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib) OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib) OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath) OR AT MORNING!(post-trib) THERE FORE! WATCH!!! Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. Thanks for posting. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:15 |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 802337 Israel 10/25/2009 07:21 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Jesus said WATCH! Quoting: GoddrunkBECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR! IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib) OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib) OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath) OR AT MORNING!(post-trib) THERE FORE! WATCH!!! Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. Thanks for posting. God bless you. WATCH AND BE READY! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 802357 Australia 10/25/2009 07:43 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Pre Trib rapture is a Lie, There is no secret rapture there is no clthes going to be neetly folded in a pile were you should be... Tim Lahaye is a heretic, Pre Trib Rapture is false Doctrine. Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil! Go back to Mother Catholic church! which is the Harlot YOU WILL GO THROUGH TRIBULATION ! 2Th 2:3 KJV - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 KJV - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:8 KJV - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 KJV - [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 KJV - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 KJV - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: ----------------------------------------------------- All of these versus are the same EVENT 1Cr 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ----------------------------------------------- Mat 24:29 KJV - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:40 KJV - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 KJV - Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. --------------------------------------------- Rev 6:12 KJV - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 KJV - And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 KJV - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ----------------------------------------------- Rev 14:14 KJV - And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Rev 14:15 KJV - And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev 14:16 KJV - And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. ---------------------------------------------- 1Th 4:15 KJV - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 KJV - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ---------------------------------------------------- Your Pre Trip, Repent of your sins works salvation, speakin da tonguesa! rock concert , flailing in the ilse churches are FAKE. Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil! To be saved Act 16:30 KJV - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Act 16:31 KJV - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. + nothing - Nothing. |
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Ozicell User ID: 798846 Australia 10/25/2009 07:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation! That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 802335 Australia 10/25/2009 07:54 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!! I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it?? Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF?? HERE are my results. I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life. ========================================================= Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture. The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on) So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31. Matthew 24:21-31 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. 23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?) 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth. Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming. #2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib. 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!) 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture. Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.   1st Corinthians 15:20-23 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming. We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.   2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.   1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.  I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!! Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved. Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26. Matthew 24:12-13 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved. Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations: It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is. 1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints. We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.   At the last trump, 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended. Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over. Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked. #1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming. Matthew 3:7-12 7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.   1st Thessalonians 5:2-3 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.   2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.   Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries. The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.   2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.   I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once. #2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked. Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist. Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.   Matthew 24:37-41 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left. 41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left. The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.   Luke 17:26-30 26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all. The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed. 28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed. It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.   2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''. Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it. |
Grinse User ID: 789282 United States 10/25/2009 07:57 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Romans 14:1 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. ..One of my favorite chapters, I only post it here because it's folly to argue about non-essential doctrine. Believing pre-trib, or post-trib does not make one an evil doer. And it's pointless to argue the matter if it makes others weak in their faith. Regardless we are told to watch for Him always and treat it as imminent. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 786565 United States 10/25/2009 08:08 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. [link to endtimepilgrim.org] Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802335Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!! I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it?? Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF?? HERE are my results. I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life. ========================================================= Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture. The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on) So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31. Matthew 24:21-31 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. 23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?) 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth. Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming. #2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib. 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!) 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture. Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.   1st Corinthians 15:20-23 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming. We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.   2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.   1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.  I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!! Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved. Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26. Matthew 24:12-13 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved. Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations: It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is. 1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints. We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.   At the last trump, 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended. Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over. Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked. #1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming. Matthew 3:7-12 7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.   1st Thessalonians 5:2-3 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.   2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.   Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries. The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.   2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.   I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once. #2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked. Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist. Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.   Matthew 24:37-41 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left. 41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left. The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.   Luke 17:26-30 26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all. The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed. 28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed. It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.   2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''. Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it. The second coming is Christ actually stepping foot on Earth and the Rapture is a gathering in the clouds (If you had half a brain the differences can be found using a dictionary to look up the term 'Rapture'): [link to www.thefreedictionary.com] rap·ture (rpchr) n. 1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures To enrapture. What sense would it make for the two events to be back to back. I also would like you to find me scripture of the pre tribulation church being placed on earth at ANYTIME during the tribulation prior to the end of Armaggeddon. Good luck! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 785071 United States 10/25/2009 08:13 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Jesus said WATCH! Quoting: GoddrunkBECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DAY NOR THE HOUR! IT COULD BE AT THE FIRST WATCH!(pre-trib) OR AT MIDNIGHT!(mid-trib) OR AT COCKCROW!(pre-wrath) OR AT MORNING!(post-trib) THERE FORE! WATCH!!! Haha. I remember reading that. I thought the same thing, but I'm not to sure to make a definitive statement about it. Thanks for posting. I read about good christian people wickedly oppressed by governments all over the globe. Missionaries martyred in Asia, christans starving and murdered in Africa, christians living hand to mouth all over South America. I know that governments will become more wicked as time marches on. [link to www.savemenowjesus.com] I think the whole debate about WHEN christians will be raptured is a luxury most Christians do not have as their lives are already threatened every day. Many in the Church are experiencing terrible tribulation. I wonder if the Church in the united states could weather merely half of what other christians are experiencing all over the world. First world christians may have to endure the breakdown of society along with what comes with mob rule. As Jesus said, "when I return will i find faith on the Earth?" |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 802335 Australia 10/25/2009 08:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. [link to endtimepilgrim.org] Quoting: Anonymous Coward 786565Read this and then read this..and THEN come up with some crap or other which somehow proves your FACT of a pre trib...because from where I am standing..the only FACT is..you are wrong!!! I used to buy into the BS pre trib garbage for 20 YEARS..until I decided..do i believe what I believe BECAUSE I have been TAUGHT it?? Or do I believe what I believe because I STUDIED it for MYSELF?? HERE are my results. I HOPE you have the GUTS to actually READ it..it may change your life. ========================================================= Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture. The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on) So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31. Matthew 24:21-31 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. 23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?) 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?) 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth. Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming. #2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib. 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!) 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture. Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.   1st Corinthians 15:20-23 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming. We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.   2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.   1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.  I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming. BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!! Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved. Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26. Matthew 24:12-13 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved. Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations: It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is. 1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints. We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.   At the last trump, 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended. Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over. Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked. #1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming. Matthew 3:7-12 7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.   1st Thessalonians 5:2-3 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.   2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.   Hebrews 10:26-27 26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries. The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.   2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.   I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once. #2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked. Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist. Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.   Matthew 24:37-41 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left. 41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left. The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.   Luke 17:26-30 26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all. The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed. 28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed. It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.   2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''. Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it. The second coming is Christ actually stepping foot on Earth and the Rapture is a gathering in the clouds (If you had half a brain the differences can be found using a dictionary to look up the term 'Rapture'): [link to www.thefreedictionary.com] rap·ture (rpchr) n. 1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures To enrapture. What sense would it make for the two events to be back to back. I also would like you to find me scripture of the pre tribulation church being placed on earth at ANYTIME during the tribulation prior to the end of Armaggeddon. Good luck! I didnt think anyone would have the GUTS to read this...its OBVIOUS you didnt,,because what is above totally shoots your theory to bits. If you HAD read it..you WOULD have changed your mind. I did..and I believe thae SAME lies and reasonings as YOU so now for over 40 YEARS!!!! Until one day I had the GUTS to SEE what the bible actually SAID about it instead of what the false teachers and money makers taught (Yes..pre trib is BIG BUSINESS and makes BILLONS..its an EASY EAR TICKLING LOAD OF CRAP THAT SELLS!!!!! With not ONE SHRED of PROOF in the scriptures. |
tkwasny User ID: 763594 United States 10/25/2009 08:23 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump... Quoting: GoddrunkSorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone. Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation? So let me guess, your trying to say one book has nothing to do with any other book. Strictly micro-cosmic view. |
tkwasny User ID: 763594 United States 10/25/2009 08:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation! Quoting: OzicellYou nailed it. The Word is personal as well as sociological and historical using many methods to get through all dependant upon the reader using the eyes and direction of the Holy Spirit. |
Ozicell User ID: 798846 Australia 10/25/2009 08:27 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump... Quoting: GoddrunkSorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone. Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation? Ok, spill the beans! What do YOU believe it means? That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon. |
MagiChristmas User ID: 554973 United States 10/25/2009 08:38 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 08:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Pre Trib rapture is a Lie, There is no secret rapture there is no clthes going to be neetly folded in a pile were you should be... Tim Lahaye is a heretic, Pre Trib Rapture is false Doctrine. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357Pentacostal garbage from heretics deceived by the Devil! Go back to Mother Catholic church! which is the Harlot Whether Tim Lahaye is a heretic or not, Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Biblical. YOU WILL GO THROUGH TRIBULATION ! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802357Of course! Christians always go through tribulation! We are told to expect it in this world! 2Th 2:3 KJV - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8023572Th 2:4 KJV - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:8 KJV - And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 KJV - [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 KJV - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 KJV - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: ----------------------------------------------------- 1Th 4:15 KJV - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 KJV - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ---------------------------------------------------- 2 Thes. 2 begins with Paul mentioning the Day of the Lord and our being gathered to him. These are 2 different things because the Day of the Lord is the Great Tribulation that ends when He comes to Earth. Our being gathered to Him is the Rapture when we go to be with Him. Then he said the Day of the Lord can’t happen until there’s a great falling away followed by the anti-Christ standing in the Temple saying that he’s God. (2 Thes. 2:4) Finally, he said that the anti-Christ can’t be revealed until the one holding him back is taken out of the way. (2 Thes.2:7) The one holding him back is the Holy Spirit, sealed in the Church. So before the Day of the Lord can come the anti-Christ has to be revealed, and before that can happen the Church has to be gone. Turn it around and it means, first the church has to go (Rapture) then the anti-Christ is revealed, and then the Day of the Lord begins. At the end of it the Lord returns and the anti-Christ is destroyed. Yes the Rapture and the 2nd Coming are separate events. But that doesn’t mean the Lord comes 3 times. Both the first and second comings bring the Lord to Earth for extended periods of time. (33 years and1000 years) The Rapture doesn’t involve the Lord coming to Earth at all. Rather, we go some where off the planet to meet him. Trumpets are used many times in the Bible because the piercing sound they make gets people’s attention. The trumpet mentioned in Matt. 24:31 is for gathering the Lord’s elect (believers) from one end of the heavens to the other. This is to prepare them for their return to Earth at the 2nd Coming. It’s not the same as 1 Thes. 4 because Matt. 24 speaks of angels (plural) being sent to gather, where 1 Thes.4 mentions only the Arkangel (singular). The term Arkangel is used only of Michael. The trumpet call of God in 1Thes. 4 and the Last Trump of 1 Cor. 15 are not to be confused with the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 for this reason. Some try to identify the the Last Trump of 1 Cor. 15 as the seventh Trumpet of Rev. 11:15, which is also incorrect. But even if they were the same the seventh Trumpet is blown 2 chapters before the Great Tribulation begins, which happens in Rev. 13, not at its end. [link to gracethrufaith.com] All of these versus are the same EVENT Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8023571Cr 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ----------------------------------------------- Mat 24:29 KJV - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:40 KJV - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 KJV - Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. --------------------------------------------- Rev 6:12 KJV - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 KJV - And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 KJV - And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ----------------------------------------------- Rev 14:14 KJV - And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Rev 14:15 KJV - And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev 14:16 KJV - And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. These aren't all the same event. Revelation 6 and Revelation 8 both seem to have the same event spoken of in Matthew 24:29, so they can't all be the same event. Not to mention, Jesus also tells us that after the event of the sun, moon and stars that the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven and all the tribes will mourn because He will be coming with great glory (Revelation 19:11-16), and in Revelation 6 and 8 it says no such thing. Mat 24:36 KJV - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. To fully understand this verse, you must understand the ancient Jewish wedding. Please watch this video, it is probably 9 minutes long and describes quite well. Last Edited by Aenon on 10/25/2009 09:07 AM "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:15 |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 08:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 08:58 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
tkwasny User ID: 763594 United States 10/25/2009 08:59 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. I Cor 15:51-54 ...after the last trump... Quoting: OzicellSorry, no easy rescue or out for anyone. Let me guess, you think the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15:51-54 is the same 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation? Ok, spill the beans! What do YOU believe it means? The knowledge in the words of the Bible are meant to be unique for each individual reading the Bible IF, and only works IF, they are modulated in conjunction with the presence of the Holy Spirit that can only exist inside each of us by having implanted the Door. Without using the decryption device, the Guide, the demodulator with the words in the Bible, the events that are exposed to each of us each second, it's all just words in a book and random events that happen in our lives. You use your Guide like I use mine and there you will have all your answers. For me to tell you with text or voice is worthless to you. Only the true Absolute Voice can reveal your path, what you are to know and when. |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 09:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. So let me guess, your trying to say one book has nothing to do with any other book. Strictly micro-cosmic view. Quoting: tkwasnyYou have to remember that Paul was using the Old Testament. We know that the "last trump" which Paul spoke of was not the ultimate last trumpet, because there will be trumpets in the Millennial Kingdom. I think the last trump just means the trumpet which signifies our duty is over, and that we are going home! "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:15 |
Goddrunk (OP) User ID: 801924 United States 10/25/2009 09:01 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: Pretribulation Rapture is Biblical (JOHN 14:1-3 / 1 THESSALONIANS 1:10 / REVELATION 3:10). Truth ahead. Sorry to burst your bubble but...............NO ONE comes out of this life without first going through tribulation! Quoting: tkwasnyYou nailed it. The Word is personal as well as sociological and historical using many methods to get through all dependant upon the reader using the eyes and direction of the Holy Spirit. I agree. Interpretation without the Holy Spirit is very fruitless. I also agree that we have tribulation while in this world! "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:15 |
Sandpiper User ID: 802394 United States 10/25/2009 09:07 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |