Q: Do you guys suppose the Pharisees *recognized* how far off base they were from God's heart?

"seemed important than alot of the other parts"


(Matthew 4:4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I feel there is a difference from what Christ spoke about back then, and what the Pharisees (and their scribes) spoke about, even to today.

Agreed. Even apart from doctrinal stances, consider Jesus' actions and words to the outcasts of society. . .to the woman at the well, and to the woman taken in the act of adultery He said not one word about judgment or even repentance. With the one, he asked for a drink and was soon discussing the nature of worship, and to the other He said "I don't condemn you - go and sin no more."

If we aren't exhibiting this same grace to others, are we actually following Jesus? If we aren't forgiving our enemies, are we really following Him?

This is vital stuff, folks.

You are addressing the Word of God and his people with your reviling.


(James 4:4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


(John 15:19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


(John 15:20) Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you


(2 Timothy 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

And it doesn't count unless it's written down already in the Bible, right?

You either believe that only certain parts of the Bible are the Word of God, and that almighty God did not preserve an accurate record of his Word to be available to the masses, or you believe that what you feel takes precedence over parts of God's Word you disagree with.


(Proverbs 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

No, it is not. Ye are of your father the devil.

You are stating that the only pertinent portions of God's Word, are the particulars of Jesus which you agree with.

The Bible is God's Word; the final authority on everything.


(Ephesians 4:14-15) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

No, I'm calling out hypocrites and their bullshit.




Can you explain why this is so, in light of the well-known verse that "God so loved the world"?

At face value, it's a massive contradiction.

But common sense suggests that "playing ball" the way the world does is actually what makes us God's enemy. We're not to take questionable shortcuts or hang our neighbor out to dry or act dishonorably for a buck.

Do you *really* think that being a friend to a troubled reject would make me God's enemy? Isn't this what the parable of the good Samaritan was all about - taking up the burden of an "outsider" in need? Ignoring socially-accepted barriers in order to provide help and mercy to someone?

I really don't think you have your story straight - you're just posting bible verses as if they're self-explanatory.

That's not exactly so, but if it were, Hebrews 1 calls Jesus the express image (Greek charakter) of God. And Jesus Himself said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father".

Think this through a little.

So, yes, I think we can safely conclude that Jesus as depicted in the gospels is the ultimate standard of God and what He's all about. Everything else in the book *must* be viewed through the lens of Christ Jesus, or we're going to get it wrong somehow. This is evident through centuries of church history.

Guys and Gals, I don't want to destroy your faith here, but I hope you do realize that any religious historian with at least a B.A. in languages or religious instruction can tell you that these encounters with authorities in the Jewish Tradition did not happen but were presented by the authors when they wrote the Gospels (much later). Mark and especially Matthew was not written by Apostle Matthew or Diciple Mark, but a series of authors compiled under a book of "Matthew" and "Mark", etc.
In the time of Jesus, Pharisees and Saduceeses did not exist in the way they appear in the Scriptures. Instead, They were around in the time when these Gospels were written, and were used as "examples" with teachings of Jesus refuting their views based on a book that is no longer existant that contained quotations of Jesus.
You need to get a religious education beyond 8th grade or 12th grade when it comes to Religion. Please!

That's fine - even if we take it as a fictional text, we can still iron out the apparent contradictions and get to the root intent of the Main Character in the story :)

You are reviling at the Word of God. As you yourself complain, I am "just posting bible verses." You are upset because God's truth is self explanatory and convicting. God gave man the Word so that all could understand it themselves, and wouldn't need any fallen being like the Pope to 'interpret it for them.'




Your entire angle is that most of God's Word is offensive to you and the world and should not be preached. This is blasphemy.

Of course God's Word commands the helping of strangers and those in need. And sharing with others God's truth about salvation is all important.

For instance, if you truly care about someone who is a practicing homosexual, you will tell them God's truth even if they hate you for it. Unless they repent (turn from the practice), they cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10).

I read about something regarding this post today:

[link to www.grace4u.org]

"
The Authority of the Scribes and Pharisees

Matthew 23:1-3a Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All, therefore, whatever they bid you observe, that observe and do.

We can almost picture Jesus turning from the "scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees," whom He silenced with the question of His own, concerning the identity of the Messiah. Speaking to the crowds in the temple Court of the Gentiles and His disciples, but no doubt still within ear to the religious leaders, He introduced His final public sermon with a strange statement, i.e., "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat."

A. Who are the Scribes and Who are the Pharisees? It is imperative that we have a good understanding of these two groups, in order to understand Jesus’ rebuke in this chapter.

1. The Scribes. The scribes were the professional theologians of the day, going back to Ezra (cf. Neh. 8:1-8). The jewish people believed that God had given the law to angels, who in turn gave it to Moses, who passed it on the Joshua; then Joshua gave the law to the elders, who in turn gave it to the prophets. The prophets then passed the law on to various leaders of the synagogue who eventually became known as the scribes. These scribes would carefully preserve the law by making meticulous copies of it and teaching it. To become a scribe, a person had to qualify by a lifelong study of the law and oral traditions, leading to a special ordination at the age of 40 years old. Once a person became a scribe, they had the power to bind or to loose, for all time the jewish people of the entire world. So scribes held considerable power and respect among the Jewish nation! No doubt what agitated these professional theologians most, was the fact that neither John the Baptist nor Jesus of Nazareth had graduated through the system leading to scribal ordination, but the people were hanging on their every word. The temple was crowded as Jesus taught and the scribes among both Pharisees and Sadducees, had been stung by the Lord's insightful and profound answers! No doubt they remained agitated, but Jesus began His sermon by zeroing in on them specifically.

2. The Pharisees. The Pharisees, were the second group and represented the opposite of Jesus' genuine righteousness. The Pharisees are mentioned 86 times in the four Gospels, with the vast majority of these references dealing directly or indirectly with some area of conflict with Jesus. It is not easy to understand the mindset of the Pharisees of the NT. Some have said, "No one, but a jewish of whom it may be said that the Talmud runs in his blood, can fully realize the spiritual meaning of Pharisism." No doubt during Jesus' day there were some sincere godly Pharisees, like Nicodemus but the majority, at least from the evidence of the NT, were not genuine. When they came into contact with Jesus, it produced the inevitably tension between genuine righteousness and religious hypocrisy.



..."

Sure I am ;)




If it's self-explanatory, why are we advised to "study to show ourselves approved", and to "rightly divide the Word"? Why are we told that the Holy Spirit will bring us into all truth, if the truth is already plain as day on the pages right in front of us?




No, my "angle" is advising that we do some proper learning and get to the root of what God had in mind. To do otherwise results in Pharisees who don't understand God's heart and have missed the whole point. To miss God's heart reduces us to judgmental religibots with a fist full of discrepancies.

If I'm so very wrong, shouldn't you have some extremely simple and obvious answers to my questions about being a "friend of the world"? I'm all ears.

Nonsense. When any are misled by this kind of blasphemy, they are then declaring that almighty God did not preserve an accurate record of his Word to be available to the masses (i.e. God cannot be truly knowable, therefore anything goes).


(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:14) The Word became flesh


These kinds of lies are believed by those who no longer want to have to be accountable to the many parts of God's Word that do not conform to their own wicked imaginations.


(John 8:37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

(Romans 4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The hypocrisy for which they were guilty is exactly what the despisers of God's Word are doing in this thread. Instead of obeying the Word of God, they followed their own wicked imaginations; the Christ they created in their own mind.

To argue that Jesus or any scripture teaches that the Bible in its entirety is not accurate, important, or to be preached is blasphemy.

(John 8:37-38) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

God has the answers, not me nor anyone else. Preach God's truth, the sword of the Spirit, with love and long-suffering. Be nice, but tell God's truth. Do not alter the Word or yourself to conform to this evil world. Christ was loving, long-suffering, but he always told the truth. For this man hated and crucified him. God's Word says that all who follow Christ in truth will suffer the same. A follower of Christ is not out to win a popularity contest, compromise with or gain acceptance of heathen.

(2 Timothy 4)

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


According to God, by doing this, the world will hate you.

(John 15:19) but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

(Matthew 10:34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

and in answer to you Pal, I was a street evangelist long before you were born, and I still serve in the Church and believe in the Lord and the effect of the Word. However, the Bible is sufficient to matters of Faith but is not meant to be a document taken to encompass everything. You must accept the fact that there is a thing called HISTORY. The book of Job was NOT written by a guy named JOB, if you get an education in liguistics instead of just going to some radical southern Bible school, you would know that it is a composite of at least five different allegorical issues organized to tell a story that had it's origin in the ancient east and spread to the west, there are WRITTEN accounts of this story as far back as bablyonian civilization. Like I said, get a decent education and stop making a fool of yourself.

(Proverbs 30:5-6) Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


So fallen beings taught you that God's Word is incomplete and not inerrant, and you believe them. Sounds like the ramblings of a victim of a 'decent education.'


(Deuteronomy 13:3-4) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

I'm curious why you would advise such a thing if satan's insidious plan consists of "love, love, love, and more love"?

Are you capable of responding in any manner other than throwing Scripture at me? Is that the only source you know? I attended a Biblical University. I know all of those Scriptures. Just quoting them is insufficient. I believe in the Bible as truly inspirational and obviously directed by the Holy Spirit but there are certain facts before the period of Luther's thesis. One is 1500 years of Church history, peppered with the Dark Ages, Revolution, differing ideologies, cults, heresy, etc. Your telling me that Jesus led us to the truth, then for some reason, Luther re-discovered what Christ intended and we are on the right track since then? Are you telling me that the current doctrines of "It is God's will for you to prosper" and the dropping of all that was done before for 2,000 years has been wrong?

God is love. God is the truth. If you love someone, tell them the truth: John 14:6. The true God of love has terrible wrath against evil, praise God.

Satan's brand of love is Godless (i.e. there is no sin), where evil such as homosexuality is never admonished, punished, or judged, but rather 'loved.'

Satan's slaves, the revolting beatles preach, "All you need is love" (note the fruits of satan's brand of Godless love as his minions draped in mutilated babies laugh in the face of the deceived masses)




Love, just as everything else, is defined by God almighty, not by the wickedness of man's imagination.

(Ephesians 5:6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Those who do not love the Lord always want to hear anything but the piercing truth of the Word of God which is perfect and complete.

(Matthew 8:29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

That doesn't sound unreasonable, but how did He display this in the gospels, when He walked the earth?




Agreed, 100%

If you want Christ's Opinion on them, Read chapter 23 of Matthew

[link to kingjbible.com]

It also Applies to the Roman Church Pharisees through History up to Today
As One of The Papal Self-proclaimed Titles is:
"The Seat of Mose"
(as well as many other pompous titles and Highly Blasphemous Titles)

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:" Matthew 23:2
(so Christ could very well Be Speaking also to Pope's Here)

Read Chapter 23 of Matthew its Very Funny, its Basically Christ putting these puffed up persons back into their rightful places.

No wonder Some of the Pharisee's Gnashed on Christ with their Teeth as He Had their Measure and would publicly De-flat them.

They picked Their Own Traditions Over The Teachings Of Christ, The Scriptures and of God's Holy Laws

Just as the Jewish Pharisees observed their own traditions also. (Lo, They Have committed worse Offenses than This....)

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

WOW, THEY CERTAINLY THINK A LITTLE BIT HIGHER OF THEMSELVES THEN IS ACTUALLY NECESSARY..."for they say, and do not"!

[link to www.bibliotecapleyades.net]

one Example: The Breast Ripper
"The name of this device speaks for itself. Women condemned of heresy, blasphemy, adultery, and witchcraft often felt the wrath of this device as it violently tore a breast from their torso."

Christ couldn't possible Approve of this, its behavior is more fitting of the Antichrist

Brother,maturity in Christianity requires that we not quote Scripture to people to try to bring them to Salvation, but to lead a life worthy through faith, hope and a charitable heart in conformance to the Command of Christ. Thereby as witnesses to the truth others will see the sincerity that you give by your example, and will become ashamed of their own behavior so much so that when you are near, their own conscious reminds them.
If your heart is seared with the love of Christ in you, your witness is already present. Then, when the circumstances are propitious, the kind words, not the condemnative ones, will bring a fallen or dis-beliver to believe. If you are patient and willing to provide answers to the difficult questions he asks of you, and you give him those answers, backed up with the Word, you will win souls for Christ. Never in my entire ministry, has anyone come to Christ convicted through attacks against them, quoting Scripture for that purpose, or by saying "I" am saved, but you are going to hell. To do so is not to have your heart in the right place. You are not concerned about saving souls, just your "score". It is a form of spiritual snobbery and God WILL hold YOU accountable. This is my final appeal to you. Open your heart to true Charity in Christ and end pomposity through clever quotations meant not for instruction, but constant reprimand and condemnation.

(Matthew 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits.



(Matthew 15:18) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

(Proverbs 30:5-6) Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

(Proverbs 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


(Matthew 4:4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



(John 8:37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

(Matthew 10:34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(Mark 8:38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.



(Romans 9:15-16) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

(2 Timothy 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

(2 Timothy 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.



(John 15:19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

(Matthew 8:29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The thing is that sometimes it seems that the kind of scriptures that are quoted seems like they are used to condemn others...using the word.



The thing is, this is exactly what the those "learned authority men" in those times did as well though... when interacting with Christ, I get the sense they would use their codes and the laws, till they were blue in the face, and availed them not...

For I get the sense that no matter what they said, they could not do what Christ could do...

I get the sense that he always said that it was the "Father" that worked through him, always gave the Father props for what he could do. I also get the sense that there is no way in such interactions they would have referred him as a "Son of God", i mean we know he was not welcomed with open arms or anything...

I believe he always referred to himself as a Son of Man when the Good News were being shared, and what such ultimate example too right?

The idea that all sons of 'Man' can become sons of 'God', think about the parables regarding seeds growing in fertile and open soils (mind), getting through the eye of the needle (all those attachments and baggage fitting through such a tiny space... and how only a few even would try), and the most important for me was the one regarding the return of the prodigal (lost) son and how the father rejoiced because Love was Unconditional. And these seemed pretty buried in the bible.

I really found those pretty amazing.