JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth

Some accept the pre-existence of Christ without accepting his full divinity in the Trinitarian sense. For example, it is likely that Arius and most early advocates of Arianism accepted the pre-existence of Christ.

Likewise Michael Servetus, although denying the doctrine of the Trinity as it is classically formulated, accepted the personal pre-existence of Christ.[15]

Today, several Non-Trinitarian denominations also share belief in some form of the pre-existence of Christ, including Jehovah's Witnesses who identify Jesus as the archangel Michael,[16] interpreting John 1:1 by translating with the phrase "a god," rather than "God."[17] Mormonism teaches Christ's pre-existence as first and greatest of the spirit sons.[18]

John Locke[19] and Isaac Newton[20] appear to have maintained belief in the pre-existence of Christ despite their rejection of the Trinity.

Here is a source that have some word-for-word quotes the AC is using, if it's easier to read there: [link to tearsofoberon.blogspot.com]

Or perhaps this: [link to wol.jw.org]

OP, it appears that you're going to be debating copy/paste for the most part. I'm not sure if GLP considers that plagiarism (was a source given? hope I didn't miss it), but it seems unfair to you, IMHO. You're debating the AC, not someone else.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/16/2012 09:29 PM

The Socinians—Why Did They Reject the Trinity?
“The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” That is how the Athanasian Creed defined the Trinity. The churches of Christendom have taught it for over 16 centuries, until today it is called “the central doctrine of the Christian religion.” But is it really? Through the years a few brave men and women have dared to argue that the Bible teaches otherwise—often at the expense of their lives.
MICHAEL SERVETUS was one of these. He was on the run for his life. At dawn on a spring day in 1553, the respected doctor escaped from prison in his robe and nightcap and fled across the French countryside. His trial by the Catholic authorities in Vienne had taken a bad turn. They knew who he was. Their own great enemy, the Protestant leader of Geneva, John Calvin, had helped to betray Servetus into their hands.
As much as Protestants and Catholics hated one another in these early years of the Reformation, they united in a still greater hatred of this one man. His crime? Heresy. Michael Servetus had written books proving that the churches’ teaching on the Trinity was unscriptural. He said: “The papistical Trinity, infant baptism, and the other sacraments of the Papacy, are the doctrines of demons.”
Where could he go? Servetus may have known that he had a small following in Northern Italy. Ever in hiding, he began to make his way there. As he was passing through Geneva, though, he was spotted in spite of his disguise. Calvin denounced him to the authorities and pushed for his execution. On October 27, 1553, he was burned alive at the stake with one of his books tied to his thigh. He died praying for his enemies and refusing to recant. Some onlookers, impressed, turned against the Trinity!
Laelius Socinus, one of the Italians who had already been influenced by Servetus’ writings, was moved by this brutal execution to examine the Trinity doctrine for himself. He too concluded that it had no basis in the Bible. He shared his convictions with his young nephew Faustus. He even left Faustus all his papers and writings. Greatly moved, Faustus gradually decided to leave behind his comfortable life as a courtier and instead share the truths he had learned from the Bible.
Hounded by the Catholic Inquisition, Socinus traveled northward. In Poland, he found a small group of Anabaptists who called themselves “The brethren . . . who have rejected the Trinity.” To Socinus, this religion was clearly the closest to the truth of the Bible. So he settled in Kraków and began to write in defense of their cause.

OP as to DGN, He openly admitted he was of sorts a shill and not a real JW on a thread perhaps 2 or 3 months ago. I had it bookmarked but when I removed an account here, that went also. So I can only offer my memory.

Now, I see some discussion here regards whether AA Michael was Jesus and I don't know what the consensus is, having not read it all, or the purpose, but I can affirm in 100% know that Jesus was NOT AA Michael. Jesus was MIchael of Nebadon, the creator Father/Son of Nebadon, the universe our solar system is in. There are a LOT of universes, 700,000 planned and not counting the new ones in the outer space rings. Each is massive. Nebadon will have about 10 million planets like earth when "done", and has already about 3.8 million planets which have evolved intelligent life. Each of these universes has a Creator Being who is the FAther Creator of that realm.

The "parentage" of all Creator SONS as they are called, is the Father and the Eternal Son. They are called MIchaels and Nebadon's Creator Son/Michael is Christ Michael and he bestowed himself as "Jesus" on this world 2000 years ago and also bestowed the Spirit of Truth on Pentecost, after he left his incarnation. Now this BODY used, for the incarnation was shared by two beings, the other one being Esu Immanuel who is spoken of in the OT as the coming Messiah. Enough of that for the time being, a necessary prelude to what I am about to post. the MIchael in revelations is NOT AA Michael, it is OUR MICHAEL of Nebadon.

There is however an AA MIchael. AA MIchael is a job title. AA MIchael actually another name, but he is the Arch Angel in charge of the resurrection of earth and her peoples. He does this FOR OUR MICHAEL, that is why its a job description. However, because of all the confusion of him being the Arch Angel OF MIchael appointed for the current resurrection, he has let himself be called AA MIchael rather than his real name, so any time AA MIchael is spoken of anywhere, its this arch angel who has the JOB of overseeing the resurrection of earth and her peoples into holiness. I have a piece I can post by him on the resurrection. However, that's for another post if you will allow it.

Now the below I am pasting in full, and since its from a member of the AH which is the 2nd coming organization, I have permission here to post it in full from SHR some time ago, so the rules of copyrighted material do not apply and its not copyrighted anyway in the fullest meaning of the word but it cannot be changed or otherwise corruption.

I needed to explain Christ MIchael here, The Master Jesus was/is the RETURNED Christ Michael who has provided this modern piece. I hope this provides some illumination. This is a prison world for the fallen angels of the Lucifer Rebellion and a lot of galactic thugs and immature souls of origin on this planet. Michael did not start a religion, bear that in mind. Anyway on the Path to Godhood, to learning to live the will of the Father is always on the right path, regardless of religion or culture born into.

This statement below does thus not mean "Christians." It refers to all who walk this planet. YOu do not need to "know" or have heard of the word Michael or Jesus. Salvation is in the hands of each individual desiring Eternal Life. Chasing religions is not the path. Each writes their own Path and Finds the WAY or not.

So here we go and I hope this is meaningful to some readers here. Some of the later comments refer to those who rebelled against Nebadon and Christ MIchael. You can't skip the steps to Paradise and you go thru HIS system before you can leave to the Superuniverse and then eventually earn Havona and Paradise. Most have no idea of this. You don't just believe on Jesus and magically get eternal life for trillions of years while all those poor muslim et all bastards go to hell. Please copy this to your computers for study. The more it is read, the more it will resonate as truth. It is for ALL. GOD LOVES ALL. OUR MIchael is GOD of this sector of the creation called Nebadon



'I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life......-Christ Michael

‘'I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man commeth unto the Father but by me''


This was a pivotal piece of teaching bequeathed by the Master Jesus when He walked your earth plane, yet no man truly understood its meaning. Man was not sufficiently ready to receive this truth then and is scarcely ready to receive it now. Yet it is significant that during these auspicious times when the planet is about to enter a new cycle of life where dimensions anew are to be experienced and earned, man must awaken to a higher understanding of himself and he can only do so if he understands Me. Milestones have been achieved by mortals in terms of advancement, yet spiritually they fail to attune themselves to a great truth that if understood could change the tenor of their existence and path of soul evolution. I come again this day to effort to explain this simple yet understated Truth.


I am the Way means that I am your ticket to a new destination. The ticket is only dispensed when a choice is knowingly made. You must choose Me through belief and active seeking and you will be given directions that will enable you to plot the coordinates that shall keep you on the path as you create an enduring alliance with Me. When you are able to make this choice you will clearly see that I Am the Way out of the illusion of mortality into the reality of immortality.


So we have primarily established that I Am the Way to eternal life. Yet eternal life can only be guaranteed for those who can find and free their inner God presence. It is I who shall direct you ones on the course that you must adopt to achieve this feat for first you must know Me before you can know yourself and be inclined to liberate that which is divine within you.


I would like to explore with you a different perspective of what it means when I say 'I AM the ‘'Way'.' The ‘'Way'' cannot be separated from the ‘'Light'' as the light brings clarity of purpose and engenders a clear path to the destiny of choice. The ‘'Way and the ‘'Light'' therefore go hand in hand. I say that the Way is the Light and I am the Way and therefore the Light.


Yet another perspective of the ‘'Way'' shall I offer to you. Did I not birth my creation from love, being the reason and root cause? (He created Nebadon) Did I not create by way of electric light waves of motion from the stillness of my mind? Is it therefore not true to say that stillness motivated by love to create by light is the ‘'Way''? Can you therefore not see that the ‘'Way'' is Love and Light and that when you choose Me you choose Love and Light? If Love and Light is the foundation of your earthly journey you will have found the ‘'Way''. (hey those who LOVE the teaching of Walter Russell will like these statements)


Did I not think my creation into being? Am I therefore not within my creation? Is the ultimate goal not to return to Source? If I am my creation and within my creation then the only way back to the Source is through Me. Does this make sense to you ones who need to rationalize ME?


I AM the Way, I AM the Light and I AM the Love manifested in my creation. I created from a point of stillness through Light motion. Does this not mean that if you choose the ‘'Way'' you too can create all which you desire to create? The ‘'Way'' enables you to reflect and be all that the ‘'Way'' is for are you not also the ‘'Way'' through Oneness with Me? The Way you shall become when you find and know Me.


I AM the Truth.


Man fights amongst himself seeking to have his truth rendered as superior to another. Yet hardly do men know what Truth is. You cannot know Truth unless you know Me- The ‘'Way''. For the ‘'Way'' shall always lead to the Truth. Man has belittled the Truth by tainting it with his personal agendas. The Truth is never influenced. It is impartial. It is inexplicable and beyond rationalization. The Truth must be known and that knowledge comes from knowing Me. Man's truth mostly is generated by that which is external, seldom reconcilable with his inner knowing and void of inner validation.


The TRUTH JUST IS AND IS JUST. That which is Truth knows only balance. It is as still, steadfast and immutable as the Creator. There lies no mystery or magic in Truth. I can say no more except to remind you that Truth emanates from within you because its origin is divine.


When you choose the ‘'Way'', you choose the Truth and it is the Truth when known and accepted that shall lead you to attain the divine promise of eternal life. For at this point in your understanding you shall accept without hesitation that I AM THE LIFE, that which is eternal and so shall you be also when you can know this.


Beloveds the life I speak of is not of mortal orientation. It is life immortal to which I refer. Life resides only in the spirit not the flesh. The spirit is All- its longevity is guaranteed by the promise of eternal life. Yet eternal life is always a choice as much as a gift/promise. For I will never force my children to choose Me; they must freely make this choice. I can say to you that many have chosen to be uncreated instead of choosing Life. I wish to emphasize that even in your sphere of reality which is earth plane, you are eternal. Mortal death is merely a transition to allow the soul to take stock in order to determine the next level of experience needed along its ascending path.


You on earth during your incarnation must understand that your life on earth does not give you the freedom to do that which you please without being accountable or responsible. You do not, contrary to popular belief have one life to live. When you can understand that I am the Life and so too are you, then you will realize in your incarnation that what you do will always impact on the evolution of your immortal soul.


So what do I mean when I say ‘'No man commeth unto the Father but by me''.

The ultimate goal as I reminded you earlier is the return to the Source of ALL. Yet those created by Me can only return to the Source by Me for I AM THE WAY.


You cannot bypass Me to get to the Source for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


You cannot fudge your way to the Source without Me for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


You cannot cajole your way to the Source without me for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


You cannot say that Christ Michael does not exist and seek to make your way back to the Source for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


You cannot believe in the Source and not in Me for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.


You cannot know of Me, denounce Me and choose the Source for I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

When you know me, see me and hear me you will see, hear and know the Father, the Source- the Centre of All. I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE. You must become ONE WITH ME for I AM the Way to the Source.

My beloved children, it was a delight to once again effort to explain what this most crucial teaching means. I trust that I have brought clarity and ask that you ponder these words and see whether enlightenment dawns.


I am Christ Michael Aton, come this day to bring the word again and thank this my child for being the emissary of the truth.

Hazel, one of our telepaths received this above.



[link to abundanthope.net]



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Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 10/18/2012 10:00 AM

What Did They Believe?
These Socinians, as they later came to be called, wanted most of all to restore the pure Christianity taught in the Bible. They felt that the Protestant Reformation had merely skimmed off some of the corruption and rituals from the Catholic Church while leaving its rotten core, its unbiblical teachings, quite intact.
Like the religions around them, they were guilty of many errors. Still, of all the religions of the Reformation, this rivulet of Socinianism adhered to the Bible more than most. Here are some examples. Why not compare them with the cited verses in your Bible?
Like the Anabaptists, they taught that infant baptism was unscriptural; in the Bible, only adults were baptized. The Socinians also stood firmly for the Scriptural command to love one’s neighbor and to forsake weapons of war. While Catholics and Protestants were avidly soaking all of Europe in blood, the Socinians refused to go to war on any grounds. Many of them died for this Scriptural stand. Furthermore, they would not agree to hold public office, since this might implicate them in the guilt of warfare.
The spirit of nationalism so rampant in those days had no hold over them. They felt that true Christians were aliens in any country of this world. (John 17:16; 18:36) Renowned for their high moral standards, they excommunicated, or disfellowshipped, any among them who refused to live by or accept Socinian explanations of God’s Word.—2 John 10; 1 Corinthians 5:11.
The Socinians did not hesitate to use God’s personal name, Jehovah. They especially valued the words of John 17:3, which say that taking in knowledge of him and his Son means everlasting life. They saw everlasting life as the great hope of all true Christians. The doctrine of the immortality of the soul they denied outright. Rather, they taught as the Bible does, that the soul dies, with hope of life based on a future resurrection.—Ezekiel 18:4; John 5:28, 29.
The teaching of hellfire they also threw out as unscriptural. Socinus saw clearly the absurdity of saying that God would torture a person in fire for all eternity to punish him for sins that had taken him a scant 70 or 80 years to commit! Some early Socinian leaders even taught about Christ’s Millennial Reign over the earth.—Ecclesiastes 9:5; Revelation 20:4.

Why Did They Reject the Trinity?
Like Servetus before them, though, the Socinians were most renowned for rejecting the churches’ teaching on the Trinity. Why did they? Their reasoning followed two lines. First and foremost, they saw that it was unscriptural.
To this day scholars readily admit that the Bible contains no reference to any Trinity, that it was the result of ‘creative theology,’ an attempt to fuse fourth-century “Christianity” with Greek philosophy. What place could such a teaching have in a movement to restore pure Christianity? None.
As one historian said of Servetus: “In place of a doctrine whose very terms—Trinity, hypostasis, person, substance, essence—were not taken from the Bible but invented by philosophers, and whose Christ was little more than a philosophical abstraction, he wished to get men to put their faith in a living God, in a divine Christ who had been a historical reality, and in a Holy Spirit forever working in the hearts of men.” He believed the three were one only in the sense of John 17:21 and considered holy spirit to be God’s active force, not a person.
Further, the Socinians found the doctrine’s so-called Scriptural supports to be quite weak. The favorite scripture of Trinitarians, 1 John 5:7, was already well-known as a corrupted text, a later and uninspired addition to the Bible. The other, John 1:1, makes sense only when understood as calling Christ “divine,” or “a god,” instead of making him the same as almighty God.
The most devastating blow to the Trinity, though, was that the Bible’s very description of God, Jesus, and holy spirit makes the membership of each of them in any trinity quite impossible. How so? Well, first of all, holy spirit is shown in the Bible to be not a person at all but, rather, God’s active force. (Luke 1:41; Acts 10:38) Second, Christ could not be “coequal and coeternal” with the Father, since the Bible describes him as subordinate to his Father and as having been created by Him. (John 14:28; Colossians 1:15) Finally, how could Jehovah, so often described as the one God, actually be part of a threefold deity?—Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6.
Thus, on Biblical grounds the Socinians refuted the Trinity. But they also rejected it on the grounds of pure reason. According to a historian of the Reformation: “Socinus held that . . . although [the Bible] may contain things above reason . . . , it does not contain anything contrary to reason.” The Trinity, with its contradictory notions of one god who is at the same time three persons, clearly fell into the latter category. As a historian describes Servetus’ feelings on the doctrine: “It confused his head, and failed to warm his heart or inspire his will.”
Nonetheless, the Socinians did fall into some glaring doctrinal errors. Socinus and his followers denied the principle of Christ’s ransom. Yet, the Bible plainly teaches that Christ, by his death, paid the price to redeem mankind from its sinful condition. (Romans 5:12; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) There were other errors too. For instance, Socinus taught against the prehuman existence of Christ, another plain Bible teaching.—John 8:58.

A Short and Tragic History
The Minor Reformed Church (as Socinians were officially called) flourished in Poland for nearly a hundred years. At their peak they numbered up to 300 congregations. They established a colony at Raków, northeast of Kraków, set up a printing press, and founded a university that attracted respected teachers and students from far and wide. From their press poured some 500 different pamphlets, books, and tracts in some 20 languages. Missionaries and traveling students secretively spread these all over Europe. It has been said that the anti-Socinian literature that these works inspired over the next two centuries could fill a library!
Hated as they were by Catholics and Protestants alike, though, the Socinians were not to remain at peace for long. Socinus himself was attacked, beaten, mobbed, and nearly drowned for his beliefs. Even before his death in 1604, the Jesuits, bent on reestablishing the Catholic Church’s supremacy in Poland, had slowly begun to insinuate their way into positions of influence with the king.
Persecution of the Socinians began to increase. In 1611 a wealthy Socinian was stripped of his property and sentenced to have his tongue cut off, to be beheaded, to have a hand and a foot cut off, and then to be burned. Of course, he could live on in peace if he would just change his religion. He wouldn’t budge. He faced his execution unwaveringly in the Warsaw marketplace.
In 1658 the Jesuits at last achieved their goal. At their urging, the king decreed that all members of the Minor Reformed Church must get out of Poland within three years’ time or face execution. Hundreds chose exile. Brutal persecutions flared up. A few tiny congregations of exiles survived for a time in Transylvania, Prussia, and the Netherlands, but these isolated groups gradually disappeared as well.
The Socinian Legacy

The Socinian Legacy
Still, Socinian writings continued to exert influence. The Racovian Catechism, founded on Socinus’ writings and published shortly after his death, was translated into English by John Biddle in 1652. Parliament had copies seized and burned and had Biddle thrown into prison. Although released for a time, he was again put in prison and died there.
But arguments against the Trinity would not die so easily in England, where many learned and reasonable men saw their Scriptural truth. Sir Isaac Newton, one of the greatest scientists in all of history, refuted the Trinity in his writings and is sometimes called a Socinian. Joseph Priestley, famous chemist and the discoverer of oxygen, was also called a Socinian. John Milton, the great poet, renounced the Trinity as well. In fact, the French philosopher Voltaire found it amusing that Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, whose writings Voltaire deemed “unreadable,” won over much of Europe, while “the greatest philosophers and the best writers of their time,” such as Newton and other Socinians, had won only a tiny and dwindling flock.
Such men, like Socinus before them, stressed the importance of reason in religion. This is as it should be. The Bible itself urges us to serve God ‘with our power of reason.’ (Romans 12:1) Yet in the Unitarian movement that grew up in England from Socinian roots, human reasoning began to take precedence over the Bible. By the mid-1800’s, Unitarians in England and America “began to abandon scripture as the prime source of religious truth,” according to a history of their movement.
Still, the early Socinians set an example many modern religions could well learn from. For instance, one Presbyterian minister praised their stand on war as compared to the “impotence [of modern churches] in the face of the World War.” He expressed hope that soon all churches of Christendom would take a stand against warfare. But he wrote those words in 1932. World War II broke out just a few years later, with the churches again supporting the bloodshed. Today, war ravages much of the globe. Religion causes more wars than it prevents.
What about your church? Has your church, like so many today, lost its respect for the Bible? Does it teach instead the ideas of men? How does it stand on such doctrinal matters as the immortality of the soul, hellfire, or the Trinity? Have you compared these teachings with what the Bible says? The Socinians did. We urge you to do the same.

here's JDB's quote from his first post: "As for cutting and pasting…YES…why not? It seems the presupposition is that because I cut and paste passages or answers from text somehow voids an answer doesn’t make any sense to me! The words are the words…as well as a huge time saver!"

You should at least cite your source, and if the OP meant to do this with your ENTIRE "argument", once again I see no point in this whole thing. Why not just give a link to your JW texts instead of doing all this pasting?

Keep2theCode - check you inbox

I'm not aware that they are online. I don't know how to link to pdf's, but I have ppl in the next room that could show me if they could be torn away from their other constant pursuits, such as currently watching the debate. I have to work kind of fast to stay ahead of demands my several debaters because of my dread of their 'christian' disappointment and 'bafflement'at my shortcomings. I eagerly await your next preach/scold/criticism.=

Is this an ad hominem attack on yourself,given your stated enthusiasm for debate on this subject?:
1Cor.1:20
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

Since 'ad hominem' has put in an appearance, isn't it now de rigueur for someone to mention 'disingenuous'? Amongst our mixed signals , I felt quite sure that you were being disingenuous in your stance of being 'troubled' at my portrayal of public stereotypes of debaters and lawyers and 'pretending' to think I was attacking OP. And it gave me a sickening feeling of betrayal as well as a feeling of "and so it begins": the predictable unjust tactics.
As for your puzzlement about my agreement to participate, there really wasn't one. I may go back and trace what happened, but it would take awhile and I really don't feel I owe you any more of my time today. If you are truly curious you can go read the DGN thread where my conversation with JDB began.

Thanks for you post ac!
Well, ok, if you want to go this route, ok!
First off, your comment:
“What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”?
I (respectfully) believe lacks integrity! The watchtower’s position that John 1:1 should be written as, “a” (lowercase “g” god) makes Jesus another “god”! But Isa_45:22 (among others) makes it very clear when God said: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.” So how does the watchtower reconcile this inconsistency?
Also, there isn’t a legitimate Greek translator in the world that recognizes the grammatical twist the watchtower puts on John 1:1! Such presumption highlights the truth that honest scholarship does not exist inside the watchtower! I don’t see anywhere in your comment what “…these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? It’s not there! *All* of the translators confirmed the proper translation for “Divinity”! Even the most liberal of translators like James Moffatt and Edgar Goodspeed translate John 1:1 as “The Word was Divine, AND THEN admit that Scripture is clear in it’s meaning as *The Full and Equal * Deity of Jesus! So again, with respect, I submit that your statement is nothing more than unfounded, biased supposition that lacks integrity!

Yes, John wrote that Jesus Is God!

I honestly cannot see how you are coming to this conclusion - twisting what words? Absolutely *no* hostility whatsoever! I mention "respect" often because I work hard at *avoiding* the appearance of anything less!

Ok, you state here that Jesus *was* physically raised from the dead! This is a new point to me! In a watchtower publican called “Studies in the Scriptures, op. cit., Vol. V, p.454, Mr. Russell stated that His body “dissolved into gases”…yes?

As for the rest of your text, it is nothing more then conjecture. No, please show us in The Bible where it teaches us that Jesus was/is Michael the AA! I can show you through rightly translated Scripture, even from liberal translators, that Jesus Is God...no conjecture!

I've regretted posting that because the emotion behind the words wasn't really about you, and I was really tired too?

Beloveds Jesus did NOT die on the cross, although that was the effect desired at the time. Christ MIchael spoken above, the Father of Nebadon, LEFT and returned to Paradise to finish out his bestowal to this world. But the other Esu Immanuel who shared the body continued on, only there was coma is all. Esu after meeting with friends and hanging around for a time, boarded a craft, and went to Damascus, which the bible records and met up with Saul /Paul. He used fire works to blind him. Then had somebody educate him since that got his attention. Paul there after preached a lot of nonsense, still confused he.

Esu latter went on to India, married, taught, made his home in Srinagar where the body is buried. These bodies do NOT go to heaven, man mostly goes to the astral realms except those that obtain 5d consciousness during life. These awaken on first mansion world on the 3rd day.

Those in the astral reincarnate. Anyway, Esu (look at name Jesus, passed this world at about 115 years of age. The body is buried in Srinagar. Also, Judas was FRAMED , he was not the betrayer. It is a lie. He was in fact the scribe, and recorded all that went on for the most part, (although a few records were lost), and went to India with Esu. So be it, this is FACT and you cannot use the bible to argue against it.

Please beloveds, you should consider getting out of the book. Remember, Jesus did say you must become like a child AGAIN to enter the Kingdom. What is a child like, curious as all get out. You must get curious and stop staying STUCK in the very incomplete bible.

It says in the bible that you must get out of this world, I forget the words, now, it means you must be able to learn to meditate, for that is where you meet God. Everything known is stored in the whole universal consciousness. Also a whole bunch is stored in the Spirit of Truth bestowed on this planet, which is a library of Sorts. It IS a COPY or transcript of Michael of Nebadon's mind. Much like you can make copies of files on your computer. The Spirit of Truth is LIVING. It is his gift to this world to upgrade its knowledge. It is accessed also by meditation and represents a world engaged in seeking real truth. Ask and it shall be answered unto according to your ability at the moment to understand. You are fed baby bites until you open to more.

You are here to GROW your Spirit. which is YOUR MIND. That is the purpose of reincarnation, you cannot learn everything about life during a single lifetime.

What i have presented in this thread is FACT, IE TRUTH. Please go back and read the I AM THE WAY piece from MIchael himself. Let it soak in. Get your curiosity aroused, like the child who bugs the parent with the WHY, what is that, how does that work, who will sit down and take apart things to see what's inside etc. You are working are becoming LIKE the FATHER KNOWING ALL THINGS, and that goes on for your entire eternal life. To be a seeker, is to seek for truth, and it hasn't a thing to do with manufactured religions, which I was always telling DGN who wouldn't reconsider.

Jehovah, as to the JW's, is a PLANET. It orbits Alcyone the Central Sun. As the most advanced planet in Pleiades it has a supervisory role in earth, or rather its people do. They helped Moses, gave the commandments, 20 of them, fried the evil Sodom and Gomorrah by method of plasma beam etc.

This world is not new. Abraham had atomic weapons and at the time Melchizedek bestowed himself, there was atomic war going on. Ponder that one, there is evidence in India of it.

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 10/18/2012 09:58 AM

Genesis 3:12 It was that "woman you gave to be with me" today ,that Keep2theCode. She was getting me really irritable and tired!

when you say my comment lacks integrity [it was part of yet another cut and paste,BTW] are you saying I'm lying? That John 1:1 thing has always been very easily acceptable to me, because I know several speakers of russian, which is similar to and related to greek, even koine greek. I will relate a statement made to me by one of these russians: Upon seeing a lot of shredded paper on the floor, and having met my cat, he opined,"This is kitty's warks [works]" Not "the kitty's warks[works]".
They treat [the] part of speech called 'articles' very differently than english speakers.

this table below of various translations of John 1:1, is all messed up, I think, but hopefully you can make out something.

Joh 1:1—“and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)”

1808 “and the word was a god” The New Testament, in An
Improved Version, Upon the
Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s
New Translation: With a
Corrected Text, London.
1864 “and a god was the Word” The Emphatic Diaglott (J21,
interlinear reading), by
Benjamin Wilson, New York and
London.
1935 “and the Word was divine” The Bible—An American
Translation, by J. M. P.
Smith and E. J. Goodspeed,
Chicago.
1950 “and the Word was a god” New World Translation of the
Christian Greek Scriptures,
Brooklyn.
1975 “and a god (or, of a divine Das Evangelium nach
kind) was the Word” Johannes, by Siegfried
Schulz,Göttingen, Germany.
1978 “and godlike sort was Das Evangelium nach
the Logos” Johannes,by Johannes
Schneider,Berlin.
1979 “and a god was the Logos” Das Evangelium nach
Johannes,by Jürgen Becker,
Würzburg, Germany.


These translations use such words as “a god,” “divine” or “godlike” because the Greek word (the·os) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous the·os. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression the·os preceded by the definite article ho. This is an articular the·os. Careful translators recognize that the articular construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone. Therefore, John’s statement that the Word or Logos was “a god” or “divine” or “godlike” does not mean that he was the God with whom he was. It merely expresses a certain quality about the Word, or Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God himself.
In the Greek text there are many cases of a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, such as in Mr 6:49; 11:32; Joh 4:19; 6:70; 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6. In these places translators insert the indefinite article “a” before the predicate noun in order to bring out the quality or characteristic of the subject. Since the indefinite article is inserted before the predicate noun in such texts, with equal justification the indefinite article “a” is inserted before the anarthrous in the predicate of John 1:1 to make it read “a god.” The Sacred Scriptures confirm the correctness of this rendering.
In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” published in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92, Philadelphia, 1973, p. 85, Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in Joh 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos. There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite.” On p. 87 of his article, Harner concluded: “In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.”
Following is a list of instances in the gospels of Mark and John where various translators have rendered singular anarthrous predicate nouns occurring before the verb with an indefinite article to denote the indefinite and qualitative status of the subject nouns:
Scripture Text
New World Translation
King James Version
An American Translation
New International Version
Revised Standard Version
Today’s English Version
Mark
6:49 an apparition a spirit a ghost a ghost a ghost a ghost
11:32 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a real prophet a prophet
John
4:19 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet
6:70 a slanderer a devil an informer a devil a devil a devil
8:44 a manslayer a murderer a murderer a murderer a murderer a murderer
8:44 a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar
9:17 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet
10:1 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief
10:13 a hired man an hireling a hired man a hired hand a hireling a hired man
10:33 a man a man a mere man a mere man a man a man
12:6 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief
[Footnotes]
Translated from German.
Translated from German.
Translated from German.



If a passage can grammatically be translated in more than one way, what is the correct rendering? One that is in agreement with the rest of the Bible. If a person ignores other portions of the Bible and builds his belief around a favorite rendering of a particular verse, then what he believes really reflects, not the Word of God, but his own ideas and perhaps those of another imperfect human.

Calling you out really got under your skin, eh AC? You're quick on the scapegoating, I'll give you that.

You are copying and pasting these walls of text from some other document, that's the point. This is NOT your original content, so you're not really discussing these issues at all; it's whoever wrote the JW talking points. I showed you WORD FOR WORD text in an online site by JWs that matches your pasted text here. You are lifting it all without citation, which is plagiarism.

And making post after post without waiting for your opponent is grounds for forfeit in any rational debate. So also is the "wall of text" each one of those posts is, because as I said you are simply lifting it from an unaccredited source.

If all the JWs are like this, if you are a faithful representative of them, then the JWs are truly a cult, and an aggressive one.

Someone's skin has been got under. That much is true.

Dude - I am so grateful for your heart and your zeal! I can see in my minds eye standing in front of you and speaking with you...I see a face that exudes total commitment and sincerity! But truly, for me, I cannot receive your words because they don't line up with Holy Scripture, and I know with all of my heart that I cannot walk on any path that doesn't fit with His Word! Because of Him I truly hold love and concern for you in my heart and do want to extend an offer to search out The Scriptures with you to see what they say - will pray for that opportunity with you!

Peace!

Thanks for replying ac!

Please receive the fact that at all times I try to be very careful with my words and my heart under submission because of His Holiness and for His glory...so no...I have not nor will not speak disrespectfully to you!

I did not give K2tC to you...I truly believe that The Most High God is using K2tC!

No - I am not saying that you personally is lying, but I will say that I am convinced that the watchtower, all the way back to C.T. Russell is lying!

As for "when you say my comment lacks integrity [it was part of yet another cut and paste,BTW]..."

Are you saying that I cut and pasted that? I didn't!

Greek translated (with integrity) teaches us that Jesus Is God! However, the watchtower’s work with Greek is in error when they place the dfinite article in front of predicate nominatives! In NWT's translation of John 1:1 it say's “theos” is *a* (lowercase "g" and thus lesser "god"! this is clearly a deliberate perversion of Greek translation rules…and I am convinced, done so, because this *one* small verse, correctly translated, totally stands against the watchtowers doctrine.

So regarding your table, it all has to do with proper translation! Such a negligence of proper translation rules in my mind can only be deliberate!

"Are you saying that I cut and pasted that?"

WHATTT? [<think Hank Hill's pronunciation] NO!!! I wasn't saying that! I was owning up to my cutting and
pasting. I'm starting to get a complex here about not being understood and offending people. I'm actually crying now. Maybe I'm unconsciously trying to sound tough, so you won't think I'm a wimpy JW who just likes to be ordered around and swallow any dogma dished out to me. And maybe I can't express myself well in that mode. I actually suspect it's worse than that, and I just can't express myself, period. I think I need to sleep about 12 hours straight right now, for one thing. Being in front of the computer so much is so debilitating.
I read some of your posts on other threads, and now feel that you are a genuinely nice person. Of course I think you have a very mistaken idea about the Org., but it's perhaps understandable, because it is so different. I think even all of us Witnesses may watch things closely, almost suspiciously, we're surrounded by SO much suspicion and skepticism. For instance, my in-laws went from thinking I was very intelligent and sophisticated, to acting like I'm a mentally ill dolt who just wants to inconvenience everyone and make a spectacle of herself by not doing the holidays, not getting involved in politics, not 'conspicuously consuming' and not thinking enough about money and all the other things they believe are important. They think it's a very annoying coincidence that I "spin not, neither do I toil, yet" I still sail through life almost unaware of all the dire consequences they think would serve me right, and shake some sense into me too. I watched this Dvd with them that was about C.T.Russell and I think all 3 of us were poised to critique it harshly [I didn't know much about him, but you hear dark hints everywhere- from you ,for instance], but all 3 of us came away charmed and believing he was surely one of the most decent men that ever lived.
About John 1:1. :the opposite of what you said. I know you mean well and hope you know I mean well. love, Anna

No - I am not saying that you personally are lying, but I will say that I am convinced that the watchtower, all the way back to C.T. Russell is lying!

As for "when you say my comment lacks integrity [it was part of yet another cut and paste,BTW]..."
I didn't!

Greek translated (with integrity) teaches us that Jesus Is God! However, the watchtower’s work with Greek is in error when they place the dfinite article in front of predicate nominatives! In NWT's translation of John 1:1 it say's “theos” is *a* (lowercase "g" and thus lesser "god"! this is clearly a deliberate perversion of Greek translation rules…and I am convinced, done so, because this *one* small verse, correctly translated, totally stands against the watchtowers doctrine.

So regarding your table, it all has to do with proper translation! Such a negligence of proper translation rules in my mind can only be deliberate!

Quoting: jdb


"Are you saying that I cut and pasted that?"

WHATTT? [<think Hank Hill's pronunciation] NO!!! I wasn't saying that! I was owning up to my cutting and
pasting. I'm starting to get a complex here about not being understood and offending people. I'm actually crying now. Maybe I'm unconsciously trying to sound tough, so you won't think I'm a wimpy JW who just likes to be ordered around and swallow any dogma dished out to me. And maybe I can't express myself well in that mode. I actually suspect it's worse than that, and I just can't express myself, period. I think I need to sleep about 12 hours straight right now, for one thing. Being in front of the computer so much is so debilitating.
I read some of your posts on other threads, and now feel that you are a genuinely nice person. Of course I think you have a very mistaken idea about the Org., but it's perhaps understandable, because it is so different. I think even all of us Witnesses may watch things closely, almost suspiciously, we're surrounded by SO much suspicion and skepticism. For instance, my in-laws went from thinking I was very intelligent and sophisticated, to acting like I'm a mentally ill dolt who just wants to inconvenience everyone and make a spectacle of herself by not doing the holidays, not getting involved in politics, not 'conspicuously consuming' and not thinking enough about money and all the other things they believe are important. They think it's a very annoying coincidence that I "spin not, neither do I toil, yet" I still sail through life almost unaware of all the dire consequences they think would serve me right, and shake some sense into me too. I watched this Dvd with them that was about C.T.Russell and I think all 3 of us were poised to critique it harshly [I didn't know much about him, but you hear dark hints everywhere- from you ,for instance], but all 3 of us came away charmed and believing he was surely one of the most decent men that ever lived.
About John 1:1. :the opposite of what you said. I know you mean well and hope you know I mean well. love, Anna

_________________________________________

Thank you for your transparency Anna…which btw, is a huge display of strength! Those that act tough are really living in deep fear! Your latest post here says a lot and allows for insight! I think one’s (personally perceived) inability to express themselves may be rooted in an internal conflict that exists between *working* at *being* whom others demand you to be as opposed to being who you are! If I am right about this, someone in a spot like you (and we all do this to varying degrees) struggles with presenting themselves accordingly with what is demanded as opposed to…*no presentation*! In other words, if we are being true to God and ourselves, then there is no need for presentation because we are simply *being* who God created us to be in the first place!
Thanks for checking out some of my past posts! Of course I know you think I have a mistaken idea about the watchtower, and I know without doubt you have troubles because of suspicion, skepticism…and judgmental-ism – which is a massive problem in the world today…the near root of which is self-worship! All of the world’s problems are rooted in pride, which begets self-worship, which begets ___________, fill in the blank! This why The Millennial Kingdom Reign is going to be so awesome…any disobedience to His Laws will be dealt with swiftly…while the rest live in peace! Praise God! For the record, as a non-JW, I too detest holidays that don’t honor The Most High God, even “c”hristmas!
As for C.T. Russell – if you want me to, I can prove by providing *facts* that this man *was* a charlatan that even “fleeced his own flock”! I can post records and activities that are a matter of public record…not hearsay, not speculation, but matters of fact that will show, in fact, that this man was *not* a decent man! Nevertheless, as I understand it, the watchtower has publically tried to distance themselves from C.T. Russell!
I know that you are probably familiar with the passage in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 regarding Prophets…so Anna, (respectfully), what the heck are you doing?
Because I am in construction I drive a truck – but let’s say I told you that I drove a big Mercedes Benz! Then my wife and I ask you guys out to dinner, and you accept! I say we’ll drive! Then I came over to pick you guys up, but, I was driving my truck! When you ask me where the Mercedes is, I say…”it’s right there! Get in, let’s go! Let’s say for my sake you guys take pity on me and for the night all pretend that I really am driving a Mercedes, while I still believe I am driving a Mercedes. Now let’s say for whatever reason, you guys really do care about me…how long are you going to allow me to go on deluding myself before you try to intervene with the truth of the matter? This, in fact, *is* what is happening with the watchtower! Their bases for theology does not line up with The Word of God! And we can “prove” it right here on this thread, but that will happen only *if* you truly want The Truth! The *Truth* of the matter is that it is *all* and *only* about Jesus Christ! Not “jesus and _________, fill in the blank”! We can squabble all day over whether I say the (unpolluted) sky is brown and you say the sky is blue…and no matter what evidence you deliver, I refuse to examine and consider that evidence! What good is it? Without arrogance I can say that, I *can*, with time and help, refute every claim or position the watchtower lays on the table! Why would anybody work so hard at defending an organization that needs so much work to prop it up? That’s the awesome thing about The Word of God- The Truth truly does stand on it own! The Truth doesn’t need to be protected nor propped up in any fashion!
So, with deep sincerity, I’m asking you, “do you really want to know The Truth?” It’s more important that could ever be imagined!

just wanted you to know i read this and i will write back tomorrow.

cool - have a peace-filled night!

the trinity of Christians is not true as to who is who Lisa at all. The Father Son and Infinite Spirit reside on Paradise, the center of the whole creation. Jesus is not the Eternal Son. Jesus as Michael of Nebadon, is a Michael Master Creator Son. He created the universe we live in. He is Father of Nebadon. That said there are 700,000 Universes, as new nebulas constantly form. The Creator Sons organize them into governed universes and create with the Mother Spirit of each of these universes, the angels needed to seed life, manage it all, teachers, ministers, guardian angels and so forth.

Each Creator Son has as his parents, the Father and Eternal Son. That the teaching of Jesus is the 2nd person trinity is TRAGIC on this world, it is not so and is a lie. Its not even a misunderstanding, it was created a lie.

The trinity is brought to each universe Thru the Creator Son (parents Father and Eternal son), and the Universe Mother (daughter of the Infinite Spirit).

The Holy spirit of Christian Trinity is not what it is thought to be either. What was bestowed on Pentecost by MIchael of Nebadon, was the Spirit of Truth, which is a LIVING COPY of his Spirit/Mind. It is a library, which is accessed thru the Father Fragment, a piece of the Father's MIND that occupies the human mind. Your Father Fragment is you best friend and teacher, and that which can commune with you thru intuition and meditation. Most don't have a clue its there, but when people think God helped them, it is often the Father Fragment, but since they don't know about it, or how it works, the divine help is usually actually a guardian angel or other celestial guide.

The Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus either, just to cover a few misunderstood bases here. Nor is the Spirit of Truth his Father. The Father of the whole Creation is the Father of his mind, and that is what he meant when he went off in meditation to commune with his Father. Now the BODY Michael used, had a genetic father and mother just as all of us do. Mary was the genetic mother, and Gabriel of Nebadon gifted his DNA as father. The bible is true in that Joseph was not the father.

Really fancy DNA was needed for Michael to have a usable body. And a lot of us coming in now, while not of virgin births, have special dna configurations so we can wake up also on this dense dark world to who we are. That is why I have been telepathic since birth. My embryo was fashioned so to speak in a lab, of my mothers, and fathers dna with some additions and replacements. We need to look like our fathers, so that we are not rejected and I do have features of mine earthly father. boy is that showing as I age! I am glad I didn't get his chin though, to masculine, but I do have his legs, hips, and eyes and forehead.

Now Jesus taught that all HUMANS are SONS OF the Universal Father, just as he was. . That has been deliberately destroyed. You are all Sons because you have a fragment of the Fathers mind that indwells your mind, for all of your eternal life in fact. You are not your body. You are your MIND and it is your MIND alone with the Father Fragment that survives death, not these bodies and you do not live in the grave until general resurrections either. Everyone choosing eternal life goes to the astral realms of this world between lives, until they obtain 5d God knowing Consciousness and progress to the mansion worlds of Heaven on the 3rd day after death of the body. This is FACT. At this end of the age, souls are now being sorted, because there is going to be the ascension of this Mother Planet, GAIA, Her MIND and body, and some cannot continue here, they are not 5d consciousness, so they are moved after they pass this plane to appropriate places to continue to earn 5d mind. At this time now, for some years, only 5d or above level folks can incarnate here.

Do not deny incarnation. It is how MIND GROWS< and every thing incarnates, right down the simplest plants and animals. the body is never ever the being. The being is the mind/soul. It uses a body. be that body flowers, or an animal form. bodies are carriers of spirit/soul. This is fact. You do not take these bodies to the heaven worlds, they return to dust. It is the soul/mind that survives and when earned leaves the world of its "birth" to travel to the mansion worlds of "heaven".

At the end of an age, or at any time it is seen fit to do so, there are general resurrections of the "survivors" still living in the astral realms. These are less than 5d consciousness and generally are taken on a space available basis to the lowest of the mansion worlds to be further trained and educated.

Now under Caligastia (the former planetary prince who entered the Lucifer Rebellion), no souls were allowed to leave this planet, (true on the other planets whose Princes went with Lucifer), and the astral realms were pretty full. of even the advanced ones. That is why the bible records that Michael or perhaps "Jesus" I forget which is used, released the captives of this world. This was done after he left the incarnation at the crucifixion. AA MIchael called forth the resurrection of the captives, and all were resurrected off the planet. There was another resurrection in 1000 AD, and an ongoing resurrection now, everyone that passes is sorted to stay or move. Only those who are high sovereigns serving this world control what they do and where they go. Most are not even close to that. I have committed to stay for 1000 years to serve during the big uplifting.

To summarize, The Father is First Source, the First Being, The Eternal Son was the FIRST Only begotten Son of the Father. Michael of Nebadon was not the Eternal Son, he is a SON of the Eternal Son and the Universal Father. The HOly Spirit is not what you have been taught. The 3rd Person of the Trinity is the Infinite Spirit, who is the parent of the Mother Spirits of each Universe.

All of the Trinity members have many sons and daughters. Uncountable ones.
I work with Siraya, is a Son of the INfinite Spirit, and the highest "ruler" of Superuniverse #7, Orvonton. There are 7 super universes, each containing 100,000 local universes like Nebadon, our universe. The Milky Way Galaxy is the core galaxy of Orvonton, but is not all of Orvonton.

The tragic of the teaching that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God is that denies all humans are also Sons of God. And each of YOU is an ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE FATHER, because only begotten means UNIGUE. Each of you are unique. There is not another like you. Because of this tragic LIE you do not desire to grow into oneness with the FATHER. But it fact that you are eternal beings because the Father is YOUR FATHER, just as he is the Father of MIchael of Nebadon. (along with the Eternal Son, who on some worlds is called the Mother Son, because he is "mother" to the Creator Sons and also Mother of the Infinite Spirit. The Father and Eternal Son brought the Infinite Spirit into Being. The Infinite Spirit is source of all evolutionary mind to all those 700,000 universes and to many of the angels, and source of the Mother Spirits which are sometimes also called the Holy Spirits of the 700,000 universes.

Gaia, the soul of this planet, is a daughter of the Mother Spirit of Nebadon by the way, and Gaia's Father is the SUN, at the center of our Solar System. Yep, suns that birth planets are Son's also of the Father, imagine that. They provide the Father elements. Like hydrogen......

now all of you reading this, stand in your shoes as the SON"S OF GOD that you are, and go within for your truth which comes from your Father Fragment and the Living Spirit of Truth gifted to this world 2000 years ago which is a Living copy of Michaels Mind/Spirit. It is a living Library that grows and changes as needed, and contains ONLY TRUTH.

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 10/18/2012 09:57 AM