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Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 09:09 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

I'm not sure what reality you guys are living in, but from where I stood Republicans helped nudge this thing through multiple times when it could have been stalled. There was always ONE REPUBLICAN who got it through committee, or ONE REPUBLICAN who waved right to stall, or ONE REPUBLICAN got it to the floor to vote on it. There was a good bit of political theater involved to be sure - but this thing was a bipartisan smokescreen.

Here is the bottom line:

The U.S. Dollar is collapsing, and an unprecedented number of penniless "baby boomers" will be broke and seeking health care... this is a plan to manage the crisis... and by manage it I mean ration it.

You guys can keep waiting a year or two at a time for the SCOTUS to hear a case, or for the REPUBLICANS to fix it... but the fact is the REPUBLICANS worked with the DEMOCRATS to get it passed - it isn't going anywhere.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816


clappa
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 09:13 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

Did Ron Paul et al actually challenge Obama Care in this context
to the Federal Courts?

No, didn't think so.


If he only pointed it out, he didn't do us any favors. Sorry.

paul-pin-88-sm

.
Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 09:15 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I just hope the ones filing the suit realize that not only is it the "penalty" mandate "tax" a tax, but there is also the tax imposed on medical devices and if I am not mistaken there is also a tax increase on anyone making over 250k to help pay for it. That in and of itself should cause it to be unconstitutional since it originated in the senate.
 Quoting: WatcherJ


Well it would kill the bill's entire funding mechanism...it would just die.

But here's the fun part, they've already hired people, they've spent billions moving towards this train wreck of a bill...now to have all of that undone...

What a fuckin' waste...and a waste from a "Constitutional Scholar" like Obama, who should have known better...

Looks bad...looks very very bad...
 Quoting: Saddletramp


Oh, he knew better, you can bet on that.
And lets not forget Pelosi saying they had to pass to Obamacare bill just to find out what was in it. They hadn't read it. That was a public statement - admitting that they passed something they had not even read.
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 09:35 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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Oh, he knew better, you can bet on that.
And lets not forget Pelosi saying they had to pass to Obamacare bill just to find out what was in it. They hadn't read it. That was a public statement - admitting that they passed something they had not even read.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37241229
.


Not to mention that Harry Reid broke the Senate rules,
passing Obama Care with less than 60 votes with the
Reconciliation process.


.
Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 09:45 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Yes, the Democrats used every dirty trick they could think of to ram this bill down our throats. I think I remember the Senate passing it on Christmas Eve after a lot of closed door sessions?
Renegade (Me too)

User ID: 36932227
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04/02/2013 09:58 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
I don't recall the constitutionality of TARP ever being challenged! So yes there is hope Obamacare can be challenged and won. How the hell can the Senate take a House Bill that has nothing to do with healthcare,completely gut it, and make it into something totally different?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37262676


I don't think will happen either. It's gotten where Congress and POTUS make the rules up as they go.
Who is John Galt?
InTheHood

User ID: 11615111
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04/02/2013 10:38 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

I'm not sure what reality you guys are living in, but from where I stood Republicans helped nudge this thing through multiple times when it could have been stalled. There was always ONE REPUBLICAN who got it through committee, or ONE REPUBLICAN who waved right to stall, or ONE REPUBLICAN got it to the floor to vote on it. There was a good bit of political theater involved to be sure - but this thing was a bipartisan smokescreen.

Here is the bottom line:

The U.S. Dollar is collapsing, and an unprecedented number of penniless "baby boomers" will be broke and seeking health care... this is a plan to manage the crisis... and by manage it I mean ration it.

You guys can keep waiting a year or two at a time for the SCOTUS to hear a case, or for the REPUBLICANS to fix it... but the fact is the REPUBLICANS worked with the DEMOCRATS to get it passed - it isn't going anywhere.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816


Unfortunately, I agree with you. It is going to wipe out the boomers rainy day savings, and probably take their real property with it at some point as well; it will leave some people absolutely destitute within a few years if they have medical issues; no savings, liens against real property. Choice between premiums/deductibles, food, energy, property taxes.

IMO: The premiums and co-pays are so outrageously ridiculous for working folks in this age bracket that it may not even pay for one of those couples to work at all, esp. if they have children they are paying daycare for.
Well, even for young people up to say age 40, 40+ earning "x" per year, they need to check it out too, it all depends on their yearly incomes, trans. expenses, tax bracket, and "expenses" incurred to WORK.

I encourage everyone reading this post to go to the Kaiser Healthcare Calculator (google it) and run the numbers, then talk to your tax preparer (unless you do it yourself) and crunch the numbers.

Not sure how close this calculator is to what is actually going to happen, but I bet it'll be pretty darn close from everything else I've been hearing/reading and what people out there in the field have been reporting on.
THX1138

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04/02/2013 10:58 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

It's a tax bullshit it is

It's a fucking mandate and they know it.

.
 Quoting: Astral Goat
.


Indeed.

But we need to kill Obama Care using the right legal language.


Team Obama argues that the Senate took a Bill that originated
in the House, gutted the language, inserted the Obama Care
language, then followed with the "deemed it passed in the
House".

However, the fact is that a "Deeming Resolution" is not
officially defined, nor is there any specific statute or standing
rule authorizing such legislation.


.
 Quoting: Bucephelus
.

That will be a big part of what kills Obama Care in this lawsuit ...

... a "Deeming Resolution" is not representative government, and
thus recognized when weighed against Article 1, Section 7 of the
US Constitution.

It just took a major case like this one about Obama Care to
finally get the issue in front of the Supreme Court.

.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


I despise this pile of shit tax as much as anyone.

But Obammy has something to say about that!

blobama
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 11:04 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

A challenge filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation contends that the Affordable Care Act is unconstitutional because the bill originated in the Senate, not the House. Under the Origination Clause of the Constitution, all bills raising revenue must begin in the House.

The Supreme Court upheld most provisions of the act in June, but Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. took pains in the majority opinion to define Obamacare as a federal tax, not a mandate. That was when the Sacramento, Calif.-based foundation’s attorneys had their “aha” moment.

“The court there quite explicitly says, ‘This is not a law passed under the Commerce Clause; this is just a tax,’” foundation attorney Timothy Sandefur said at a Cato Institute forum on legal challenges to the health care act. “Well, then the Origination Clause ought to apply. The courts should not be out there carving in new exceptions to the Origination Clause.”

Legal opinion on the matter is split. Randy Barnett, a Georgetown University Law Center professor, said in an article for the Volokh Conspiracy that, “If any act violates the Origination Clause, it would seem to be the Affordable Care Act.”

[link to www.washingtontimes.com]

,
 Quoting: Bucephelus


Here's your chance to redeem yourself C.J.Roberts. Bet you don't however. obigbro
THX1138

User ID: 24183289
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04/02/2013 11:13 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

I'm not sure what reality you guys are living in, but from where I stood Republicans helped nudge this thing through multiple times when it could have been stalled. There was always ONE REPUBLICAN who got it through committee, or ONE REPUBLICAN who waved right to stall, or ONE REPUBLICAN got it to the floor to vote on it. There was a good bit of political theater involved to be sure - but this thing was a bipartisan smokescreen.

Here is the bottom line:

The U.S. Dollar is collapsing, and an unprecedented number of penniless "baby boomers" will be broke and seeking health care... this is a plan to manage the crisis... and by manage it I mean ration it.

You guys can keep waiting a year or two at a time for the SCOTUS to hear a case, or for the REPUBLICANS to fix it... but the fact is the REPUBLICANS worked with the DEMOCRATS to get it passed - it isn't going anywhere.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816


Unfortunately, I agree with you. It is going to wipe out the boomers rainy day savings, and probably take their real property with it at some point as well; it will leave some people absolutely destitute within a few years if they have medical issues; no savings, liens against real property. Choice between premiums/deductibles, food, energy, property taxes.

IMO: The premiums and co-pays are so outrageously ridiculous for working folks in this age bracket that it may not even pay for one of those couples to work at all, esp. if they have children they are paying daycare for.
Well, even for young people up to say age 40, 40+ earning "x" per year, they need to check it out too, it all depends on their yearly incomes, trans. expenses, tax bracket, and "expenses" incurred to WORK.

I encourage everyone reading this post to go to the Kaiser Healthcare Calculator (google it) and run the numbers, then talk to your tax preparer (unless you do it yourself) and crunch the numbers.

Not sure how close this calculator is to what is actually going to happen, but I bet it'll be pretty darn close from everything else I've been hearing/reading and what people out there in the field have been reporting on.
 Quoting: InTheHood


As of right now, my monthly premium will be almost $600/month. And that rate will only go up in the next year. I'm betting on a minimum of about $750-850/month.

LMFAO!

No way I can or will hand over that much cash to yet another insurance scam.

My alternative? Pay the uninsured FEDERAL TAX for the ghetto dwellers to have free sick care, all the while I will still be without basic medical coverage in case I get into a car accident or whatever.

This makes me fucking sick [pun intended].
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 11:19 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
THIS is what happens when people have a LITTLE knowledge, and STILL can't understand what they know!!

REVENUE Bills must originate in The House, the Affordable Care Act IS NOT a 'revenue' Bill.


sigh



.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9253150


What means of revenue does the government employ? Taxes. Tax is revenue.
Eggcellent

User ID: 30199236
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04/02/2013 11:28 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Can't this be fixed by Executive Order like everything else?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37270235




Only if the Executive WANTED to fix it......
"I have come to the conclusion that all news should be treated like 9/11, assume it is a psyop with actors participating in a staged event complete with props, until proven otherwise, in which case assume whatever is being recorded, reported, televised, is distortions/lying by omission/outright lies, until proven otherwise." - Anonymous, 4-13-12
Eggcellent

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04/02/2013 11:40 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Any idiot, or small child for that matter, can easily understand that a bill does not originate in the House if the Senate entirely changes everything and adds a bunch of new stuff to it.

It's absolutely ridiculous that we even have to ponder these questions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24760791




You must not have had much experience with lawyers!!! In the Middle Ages lawyers argued at length about how many angels could fit upon the head of a pin.

Of course common sense would support what you have pointed out. Unfortunately, in the American legal system there isn't a whole lot of sense, and it certainly isn't common!
"I have come to the conclusion that all news should be treated like 9/11, assume it is a psyop with actors participating in a staged event complete with props, until proven otherwise, in which case assume whatever is being recorded, reported, televised, is distortions/lying by omission/outright lies, until proven otherwise." - Anonymous, 4-13-12
Eggcellent

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04/02/2013 11:59 AM

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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Yes, the Democrats used every dirty trick they could think of to ram this bill down our throats. I think I remember the Senate passing it on Christmas Eve after a lot of closed door sessions?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37262676




Along with out-and-out BRIBES to Congresspeople who were on the fence (that went on in a lot of those closed-door sessions)
"I have come to the conclusion that all news should be treated like 9/11, assume it is a psyop with actors participating in a staged event complete with props, until proven otherwise, in which case assume whatever is being recorded, reported, televised, is distortions/lying by omission/outright lies, until proven otherwise." - Anonymous, 4-13-12
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 03:01 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Can't this be fixed by Executive Order like everything else?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 37270235
.

Only if the Executive WANTED to fix it......

.
 Quoting: Eggcellent
.


Obama Care is going to murder the rest of the Democrats
running for political office in the 2014 Election. Anyone
standing close to it will get dragged down by it.


The best thing for the Dems is for Obama Care to die.


Barackside566478

.
Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 03:51 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
Here's the salient verbiage in the proposed Complaint:

SECOND CLAIM FOR RELIEF FOR VIOLATION OF THE ORIGINATION CLAUSE (U.S. CONST. ART. I, § 7, CL. 1)

....

38. The Origination Clause of the Constitution provides that “[a]ll Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives.” U.S. Const. Art. I, § 7, cl. 1. Bills that are subject to the Origination Clause “rais[e] revenue to support Government generally.” United States v. Munoz-Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

...

40. Despite the fact that the Act raises considerable revenues, it originated in the Senate, not the House. In September, 2009, the House passed H.R. 3590, entitled the “Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009.” H.R. 3590, 111th Cong. (2009) (attached hereto as Exhibit 1). The bill would have “amend[ed] the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees”; it had nothing to do with health insurance reform. Id. In November of that year, the Senate purported to “amend” the House bill by gutting its contents, replacing them with health-insurance reforms (including the purchase requirement and associated payment), and renaming the bill the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.” Senate Amendment No. 2786, 111th Cong. (2009) (purporting to “amend” H.R. 3590) (attached hereto as Exhibit 2). The Senate’s substitute legislation—a revenue-raising tax bill—became the Affordable Care Act. See attached Exhibit 3 (official history of H.R. 3590 from the original bill concerning the first-time homebuyer credit through to passage of Act).

41. Because the tax originated in the Senate, and not in the House, it violates the
Origination Clause.


[link to www.pacificlegal.org]

We'll see what happens.
 Quoting: Little Baby Jesus
.


What is described in paragraph 40 is exactly what
happened with TARP iirc.

Was it Constitutional then?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24537404
.


No, but I'm not aware of any group who actually challenged
TARP in Federal Court citing the "Origination Clause" of the
Constitution.


The Supreme Court is very UNLIKELY to recognize the so-called
"Deeming Resolution" that Pelosi and Reid used for Obama Care.

.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


I have some fear that TARP could "lock in" Obamacare. Things should not work this way, I pray they don't, but SCOTUS could decide not to accept this argument. Because then TARP could also be challenged easily, and that would be "deemed" to have too much of a chaotic effect, or be against public policy, or something like that.

Hope it works, it sounds too good to be true. Really hope it works and O'care is nullified.
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/02/2013 04:53 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
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A nearly 5-star thread.


Lots of people hate Obama Care it seems ...


.
Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2013 04:59 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
"Hate" is not a strong enough word....
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 27112816
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04/02/2013 10:23 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

Did Ron Paul et al actually challenge Obama Care in this context
to the Federal Courts?

No, didn't think so.


If he only pointed it out, he didn't do us any favors. Sorry.

:paul-pin-88-sm:

.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


The only thing you can pick out as a flaw to my argument is the name RON PAUL?

You can't see the forest through the trees.

Look, all kinds of people pointed this out from the outset... he is just the only one I remember by name. It doesn't matter how much you fantasize about this, in the grand scheme of things this doesn't even amount to a technicality to the house, senate, or the scotus.

They are reverse engineering the justification for this case right now. The decision will come down 5-4 and you will say "OH THOSE PESKY DEMS WE ARE ALWAYS SO CLOSE!!!!"

You have a children's level naivety about how politics works.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 37346301
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04/03/2013 12:29 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
You must not have had much experience with lawyers!!! In the Middle Ages lawyers argued at length about how many angels could fit upon the head of a pin.


 Quoting: Eggcellent


If I may briefly come to the defense of the much maligned Duns Scotus-when he said that he was making a serious speculation into the physical nature of God's ineffable beings. Its just a way of comparing "spirit" and "matter" which, while its been made to sound dumb (much like the cowbell in "Don't Fear the Reaper") was actually kind of clever.

I'm kind of fond of the Brown Scott.
Bucephelus (OP)

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04/03/2013 08:06 AM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

Did Ron Paul et al actually challenge Obama Care in this context
to the Federal Courts?

No, didn't think so.

If he only pointed it out, he didn't do us any favors. Sorry.

paul-pin-88-sm

.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


The only thing you can pick out as a flaw to my argument is the name RON PAUL?

You can't see the forest through the trees.

Look, all kinds of people pointed this out from the outset... he is just the only one I remember by name. It doesn't matter how much you fantasize about this, in the grand scheme of things this doesn't even amount to a technicality to the house, senate, or the scotus.

They are reverse engineering the justification for this case right now. The decision will come down 5-4 and you will say "OH THOSE PESKY DEMS WE ARE ALWAYS SO CLOSE!!!!"

You have a children's level naivety about how politics works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

The reality of politics is that politicians bend to public opinion.
For that matter, so doe the "esteemed" Supreme Court.


Please find ANY recent poll that suggests the majority of the
public WANT and will support politicians in 2014 because of Obama Care.


You can't.

Case closed.

.
Bucephelus
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24537404
United States
04/04/2013 09:17 PM
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Re: Obama Care "tax" originated in US Senate - Lawsuit poised to KILL Obama Care on a technicality
.

Nothing will kill this thing.

Origination from the senate was pointed out from the outset by Ron Paul and others.

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816
.

Did Ron Paul et al actually challenge Obama Care in this context
to the Federal Courts?

No, didn't think so.


If he only pointed it out, he didn't do us any favors. Sorry.

:paul-pin-88-sm:

.
 Quoting: Bucephelus


The only thing you can pick out as a flaw to my argument is the name RON PAUL?

You can't see the forest through the trees.

Look, all kinds of people pointed this out from the outset... he is just the only one I remember by name. It doesn't matter how much you fantasize about this, in the grand scheme of things this doesn't even amount to a technicality to the house, senate, or the scotus.

They are reverse engineering the justification for this case right now. The decision will come down 5-4 and you will say "OH THOSE PESKY DEMS WE ARE ALWAYS SO CLOSE!!!!"

You have a children's level naivety about how politics works.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27112816


I hope you're right. No matter how obnoxious you sound, I'll be your friend, if you are right about this.

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