Why does Jesus refer to Himself as the "son of man" and not the "son of God"?

That is a cop-out. I don't want somebody's commentary of the word, I want the word of God itself explicitly saying otherwise and I know for a fact that it does not. I posted the word of God saying otherwise, a soul is not a spirit, it is a living being. Are you saying everyone has a Spirit in them? If that would be so, why does the word not say that? Where would the room be for the Holy Spirit? Why would Yeshua say he is sending us a helper if we already had one. What kind of Spirit does everyone have? A good one, a bad one? That is not biblical. Only some have THE Spirit, the Holy Spirit and of course people can become possessed of evil spirits.

not a cop out. i have carefully selected a word study on the difference between the soul and the spirit according to scripture in the Hebrew and the Greek.

you are unwilling to read it.

if you continue to harass, i will be forced to remove you from the thread.

Man means Adam in hebrew . "Son of man" means "Son of Adam" .

Adam was created. The Son of man - born. NOT THE SAME, at all.

"You have to be BORN AGAIN."

FAQ:

What other evidences for Enoch's authenticity (as a sacred text) are there?

Why isn't it in the Bible today?

Jesus said that angels can't have sex, proving this book's falsehood...

The idea that Jesus said that angels cannot have sex is a very common objection to The Book of Enoch and the angelic understanding of Genesis 6 in general. However it is also a very common misinterpretation of what he actually said. Go Here to read what he said (Matt 22:30), and to study this topic. Beyond that misunderstanding, there is no doubt today that The Book of Enoch was one of the most widely accepted and revered books of Jewish culture and doctrine in the century leading up to Jesus' birth.

It is usually noted first that New Testament author Jude directly quotes from 1 Enoch - "Behold he comes with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgment ..." (1 Enoch 2, Jude 14-15). Additionally, "the citations of Enoch by the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs... show that at the close of the second century B.C., and during the first century B.C., this book was regarded in certain circles as inspired" (1).

Aside from Jude, Peter and Paul's affirmations of the angelic/hybrid interpretation, recognition of 1 Enoch "... is given amply in the Epistle of Barnabus, and in the third century by Clement and Irenaeus" (1). The Catholic Church's Origen - known as "the father of theology" - affirmed both the Book of Enoch and the fact that angels could and did co-habitate with the daughters of men. He even warned against possible angelic and/or Nephilim infiltration of the church itself. Oddly, while thousands of his writings are still considered by them as "sacred," this very issue got him labeled as a heretic when the faulty Sons of Seth "doctrine" was conceived! (2)

Additionally, the Coptic Orthodox Churches of Egypt (est'd appx 50-100 A.D.) still include Enoch as canonized text in the Ethiopic Old Testament (2). This fact alone should carry great weight for Western Christians when honestly studying the "case" for Enoch. Given their 1900+ year history, the fact that they were never "ruled" by Rome's theology, and that they currently number over 10 million - this is a VERY significant portion of The Body of Christ that has historically esteemed 1 Enoch as inspired doctrine.

Some today (who do not seem to believe in the inspiration of scripture) claim that most major themes of the New Testament were in fact "borrowed" from 1 Enoch. "It appears that Christianity later adopted some of its ideas and philosophies from this book, including the Final Judgment, the concept of demons, the Resurrection, and the coming of a Messiah and Messianic Kingdom" (3). No doubt, these themes are major parts of 1 Enoch, and appear there as complete theologies a full 200 years before any other NT writings.

Christian author Stephen Quayle writes, "Several centuries before and after the appearance of Jesus in Jerusalem, this book had become well known to the Jewish community, having a profound impact upon Jewish thought. The Book of Enoch gave the jewish people their solar calendar, and also appears to have instilled the idea that the coming Messiah would be someone who had pre-existed as God (4)." Translator RH Charles also stated that "the influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than all of the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books put together" (3). The conclusions are somewhat inescapable given Enoch's dating and wide acceptance between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. - either Christian authors, and especially the Nicene Council, did plagiarize their theology directly from Enoch, or the original version of Enoch was also inspired.

James H Charlesworth, director of Dead Sea Studies at Yale University, says in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha & The New Testament (Trinity Press International),
"I have no doubt that the Enoch groups deemed the Book of Enoch as fully inspired as any biblical book. I am also convinced that the group of jewish people behind the Temple Scroll, which is surely pre-Qumranic, would have judged it to be quintessential Torah -- that is, equal to, and perhaps better than, Deuteronomy....Then we should perceive the Pseudepigrapha as they were apparently judged to be: God's revelation to humans(2 & 5)."

But perhaps the most telling argument for 1 Enoch's "inspiration" may well be that the Jewish understanding of the term "Son of Man" as a Messianic title comes - not truly from our Old Testament canon - but from the Book of Enoch! Ever wonder why Jesus refers to himself in the gospels as the "Son of Man" rather than the Son of God? (2) Of over 100 uses of the phrase "son of man" in the OT, it refers almost always to "normal" men (93 times specifically of Ezekiel, and certainly not as Messiah!), but is used only one time in the entire OT, in one of Daniel's heavenly visions, to refer to divinity. Despite the Old Testament's frequent lack of divine application of the phrase, 1 Enoch records several trips to heaven, using the title "Son of Man" unceasingly to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ. Of particular Messianic significance, Enoch describes the following scene (2):

The angels "glorify with all their power of praise; and He sustains them in all that act of thanksgiving while they laud, glorify and exalt the name of the Lord of Spirits forever and ever... Great was their joy. They blessed, glorified and exalted because the name of the Son of Man was revealed to them (1 Enoch 68:35-38)." Both His disciples, and especially the Sanhedrein knew what Jesus was claiming - 84 times in the gospels! - when referring to Himself as the "Son of Man." This claim was considered an obvious blasphemy to the Pharisees & Saducees, but it is eternal life to all who confess that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, the Son of Man, The Messiah, God in the flesh, The Holy One of Israel, God's Christ - the Lord of All to whom every knee shall bow (Philippians 2:8-10).

Using "normal rules" of scriptural interpretation, we are never to draw firm doctrine from only one passage of scripture. Right? Daniel's single use of "Son of Man" (in a "night vision" at that - Dan 7:13), would not be sufficient to claim that the phrase is indeed Messianic, especially given the other 107 times it is not used in that way. 1 Enoch is the missing "second witness" needed (according to all other rules of interpretation) to understand the phrase's double meaning as an enduring Messianic title. It has been argued ever since Enoch's first English translation, that by using this title so familiar to the jewish people, Jesus was actually affirming the truth of this book, that the prophet was taken on many trips to heaven before his "final" translation, and that HE WAS THE ONE whom Enoch saw there - the pre-existent Son of Man, whom Enoch prophesied would judge the souls of all men.

Interestingly, Daniel is ALSO the only OT use of the term "watcher" to ever refer to angels (Daniel 4:13, 17, 23 KJV). Strong's Concordance defines a watcher as a "guardian angel" (Strong's 5894). "The distinguishing character of the Watcher (opposed to other angels in the canon) appears to be that it spends much time among men, overseeing what they are doing. It is also interesting to note that both times one of these angels appeared to Daniel, he took pains to note that it was "an holy one," suggesting that some Watchers are not aligned with God while others are (4)." Found nowhere else in the OT canon but the book of Daniel, "watcher" is patently Enoch's term for these angels. Likewise, Daniel alone used Enoch's term "Son of Man" to refer to the pre-incarnate Christ, adding further intrigue to the case for 1 Enoch's inspiration, and an overall understanding of it's doctrinal acceptance among both Old and New Testament writers.

What we lose out on today by not examining 1 Enoch - even if only for its historical significance - is that it is actually more splendid than ANY OTHER book in our canon in its exultation of Christ as King! It also gives clear, stern and oft-repeated warnings to the unsaved of swift destruction at the Coming of The Lord, but is also full of amazing promises of future glory for the elect! We are of course wise to stay clear of dangerous heresy, but... ask yourself if the below sounds like false doctrine? Keep in mind, this was written at least 200 years before Christ walked the earth, and perhaps before Noah's birth:

Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify Him who has dominion over all things, Him who was concealed; for from eternity the Son of Man was concealed, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of
His power and revealed to the elect.

He shall sow the congregation of the saints, and of the elect; and all the elect shall stand before Him in that day.
All the kings, the princes, the exalted, and those who rule
over the earth shall fall down on their faces before Him,
and shall worship Him. They shall fix their hopes on this Son of Man...

Then the sword of the Lord of Spirits shall be drunk from them (the lost); but the saints and the elect shall be safe in that day; nor the face of the sinners and the ungodly shall they thence-forth behold. The Lord of Spirits shall remain over them; And with this Son of Man shall they dwell, eat, lie down, and rise up for ever and ever...

Enoch 61:10-13

Literally Translated from the Ethiopic by Richard Laurence LL.D.
Archbishop of Cashel
Late Professor of Hebrew in the University of Oxford

To answer this question, one must be familiar with the Genesis epic, the book of Enoch, and the Nephilim. It is important to realize that during the time of Genesis and the hybrids called the Nephilim that sometimes it was difficult to know who was a hybrid and who was born of natural causes (birthed by a woman, conceived by a man).

Jesus is clarifying that He is a 'son of man'. And, why would God Himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself'?

He wouldn't.

Jesus is God.

From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!

at the resurrection?

when people pass away, they will be like the angels in heaven..

nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).

Hi Salt,

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

From your very first part of your post you are selectively making statements that are not borne out by Jesus' words.

I will stick to what Jesus is alleged to have said because most of the other stuff is man's interpretations and man is a bit famous for getting things wrong!

Let's look at "Jesus is GOD"

You ask the question "Why would GOD himself refer to Himself as the 'son of Himself"?

Well he wouldn't when you put it like that and follow trinitarian doctrine but when asking that you need to extend your thinking.

If Jesus is a separate entity he could call himself "Son of GOD' and that would be accurate.

BUT what else did Jesus say?

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

Jesus the one you allegedly worship said these things.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states don't call me good ONLY GOD is good!
This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD isn't it? Jesus said it!

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be? Was Jesus lying?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man has seen GOD at any time then is Jesus being GOD, lying? Are the Moses' of this world also lying?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So the father is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal?

HOWEVER it does explain why Jesus said what he said in Luke 12:10 below.

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? If Jesus was GOD he wouldn't have said this!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves... GOD gave Jesus life in himself! Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same? If they are one in the same this is most deceitful.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own. GOD sent Jesus to Earth!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? Again, why the subterfuge?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus pleads to know why his GOD had foresaken him. If Jesus is GOD this makes no sense at all. Is he pleading with himself asking why he has foresaken himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are illogical?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here? I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words as one he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

John 17:22 -23And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So can we be GOD also? Jesus further explains oneness here!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD sent his SON (an entity) and the Holy Ghost (another entity) in Jesus' name (a third entity). GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a very loud separation!

This makes no sense at all... unless they are separate entities!

I could pull out verse after verse of what you guys believe Jesus said whilst on Earth and you would still refuse to listen to him.

So I guess the question is this... Do you believe man made doctrine or do you believe what Jesus expressly said?

Study the history of trinitarian thinking... It was never stated by Jesus!

Why didn't Jesus being an omniscient being who knows all things and would obviously know the dilemma this would cause in the future simply say "I am GOD"!

I have posted much of this before BUT people making the statement JESUS IS GOD doesn't comply with any reasonable study of JESUS' teachings!

nobody is in Heaven until after judgment day. the dead are asleep (or in a temporary place).

You could not understand the mystery of the trinity and it will not be revealed until the end. But Jesus Christ is also the LORD of lords same time he is the Son of Man and Son of God, the Lamb the Lion and the WORD, even the angel of the harvest. You know not the meaning of the omnipresence. The Son is what has done what is needed to save ye show gratitude to the Son, ye can not come unto the Father but through the adoption done by the Son.

well stated.

He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.

He didn't die on the Cross Salt. he was only in a coma. But it was intended that ones there believe he died, so he could get the hell out of that hell hole. His apostles knew he would NOT die. He told them and he revealed himself to them a few times and ascended into a craft and went to Damascus. He met Saul there about 2 years later. He then hid and went out of there and eventually to India.

the urantia book is false. period, end of sentence.

Hi Salt,

Soul Sleep is 7th Day Aventist and not true.

There are a lot of verses in the Gospel that speak of the
saints in Heaven, read Revelation.

How are specific prayers said to certain saints for their intercession to God answered if there are no saints in Heaven?

Our Lord has two natures, He is fully God and a fully
man. The mystery of the Incarnation. God can do anything.

Jesus said I am God in Matthew 8:58
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

This information I placed is NOT from the Urantia book Salt. In fact they don't actively mention ESU at all who continued on. They at that time for safety did not acknowledge the rest of the story. If you had actually READ the UB you would not have made the above statement. You cannot judge that which you have not read.

This above is the direct teaching of JESUS NOW,(the ESU portion of "jesus", and you can read it here: [link to www.freewebs.com]