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California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.

 
freddie 0

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03/19/2017 08:33 PM
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...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


Not at the top of the spillway. It is right next to the top of the dam abutment.
 Quoting: Crunch62


yup. it's starting to look like the MS and ES will both
be eroding away the Dam at the same time.

that doesn't seem very good to me.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 08:36 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
Question from Montana, why do you think the dam will fail?
 Quoting: bigD111


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I've been following this thread from the beginning. I know what is in the thread. I just am asking a question. From my view, things don't look very dire, so I just wanted to know why you think it will fail!
 Quoting: bigD111


So you have been here from the beginning and learned not a thing in the process. You. Are. Breaking. My. Damn. Heart.

Water bad. Bounce bad. Snowpack bad. No mandatory evacuation bad.

Sorry. Like I told crunch. I am a bit frustrated. We could really use a miracle.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 08:39 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
Please look at this KCRA video from Friday --

Pay attention at the extreme beginning (I had to restart it several times)and again at 3:11 to look at the chute structure itself. It looks like new concrete on the structure up above the chutes. Has the whole MS from top to bottom needed to be patched and repaired? Due to the battering/vibrations from the water?

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


Sorry, folks. I was able to watch this on Youtube but maybe it's KCRA owed video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


This one works -- again, please look at the chute housing itself and see if you see repairs to that structure itself.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


The coloring in the concrete of the building is glaringly different. Some looks very fresh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


I think there are so many reasons that we aren't allowed to see live repairs that have been going on from the from of the MS. 'They' really don't want us to know how much they have had to try to repair.
bigD111

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03/19/2017 08:40 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
Question from Montana, why do you think the dam will fail?
 Quoting: bigD111


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I've been following this thread from the beginning. I know what is in the thread. I just am asking a question. From my view, things don't look very dire, so I just wanted to know why you think it will fail!
 Quoting: bigD111


So you have been here from the beginning and learned not a thing in the process. You. Are. Breaking. My. Damn. Heart.

Water bad. Bounce bad. Snowpack bad. No mandatory evacuation bad.

Sorry. Like I told crunch. I am a bit frustrated. We could really use a miracle.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


Oh shut up. I just asked a question. I've also been calving for 51 days and am only here in the evening for the most part. I have my hands full doing what I do. I am concerned and want to be informed.

Last Edited by bigD111 on 03/19/2017 08:43 PM
deplorably republican
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 08:41 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
meant to say front of the MS.
freddie 0

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03/19/2017 08:41 PM
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Sorry, folks. I was able to watch this on Youtube but maybe it's KCRA owed video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


This one works -- again, please look at the chute housing itself and see if you see repairs to that structure itself.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


The coloring in the concrete of the building is glaringly different. Some looks very fresh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


I think there are so many reasons that we aren't allowed to see live repairs that have been going on from the from of the MS. 'They' really don't want us to know how much they have had to try to repair.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


read an article that they have been spending 4.7 million Dollars
per day on the patchwork. (no word on how many days that is.)
LJM77

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03/19/2017 08:42 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
Question from Montana, why do you think the dam will fail?
 Quoting: bigD111


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
LJM77

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03/19/2017 08:46 PM

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...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


Not at the top of the spillway. It is right next to the top of the dam abutment.
 Quoting: Crunch62


That is why the situation is much more serious than folks understand. Once the water starts cutting the dam will go with it. The dam is made of soft material that will wash out with water pressure...and boy will there be water pressure!
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 08:58 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
LJM77

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03/19/2017 09:03 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
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What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:03 PM
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What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but -- I agree with you.
LJM77

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03/19/2017 09:09 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
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An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but -- I agree with you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


Do you have any idea how much power and force is behind that wall of water in Lake Oroville? Continue...I will back off.
LJM77

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03/19/2017 09:14 PM

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I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but -- I agree with you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


Do you have any idea how much power and force is behind that wall of water in Lake Oroville? Continue...I will back off.
 Quoting: LJM77


For the record, the water eats at the edge of the dam and works it's way across. Gravity dictates that it could never "top" the dam. Carry on...
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:17 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
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An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


A question, lakeside--looking at the chute channel, the land wall to the left--is that all natural mountain or man made?
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:20 PM
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I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


A question, lakeside--looking at the chute channel, the land wall to the left--is that all natural mountain or man made?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


I only ask because I was thinking that it was natural and that the water would then be directed over toward the ES naturally and just eat that area away.
LJM77

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03/19/2017 09:21 PM

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I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


A question, lakeside--looking at the chute channel, the land wall to the left--is that all natural mountain or man made?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


Man made...that is soft material.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:24 PM
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Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


A question, lakeside--looking at the chute channel, the land wall to the left--is that all natural mountain or man made?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24518639


Man made...that is soft material.
 Quoting: LJM77


Ok. Well, that changes my thoughts.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:27 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
Question from Montana, why do you think the dam will fail?
 Quoting: bigD111


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I've been following this thread from the beginning. I know what is in the thread. I just am asking a question. From my view, things don't look very dire, so I just wanted to know why you think it will fail!
 Quoting: bigD111


So you have been here from the beginning and learned not a thing in the process. You. Are. Breaking. My. Damn. Heart.

Water bad. Bounce bad. Snowpack bad. No mandatory evacuation bad.

Sorry. Like I told crunch. I am a bit frustrated. We could really use a miracle.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


It is a big Miracle the dam has lasted this long!
freddie 0

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03/19/2017 09:32 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I've been following this thread from the beginning. I know what is in the thread. I just am asking a question. From my view, things don't look very dire, so I just wanted to know why you think it will fail!
 Quoting: bigD111


So you have been here from the beginning and learned not a thing in the process. You. Are. Breaking. My. Damn. Heart.

Water bad. Bounce bad. Snowpack bad. No mandatory evacuation bad.

Sorry. Like I told crunch. I am a bit frustrated. We could really use a miracle.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


It is a big Miracle the dam has lasted this long!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69123512


not really, it certainly has all the weaknesses it needs,
but the one factor we are still waiting on is whether
or not there will be enough erosion of the Spillway Area
to cause a serious significant Dam Breach.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:33 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


It is made up of soft tailings. It would cut away in minutes, or less, if there is failure. I've witnessed this up close. Water is extremely powerful...it takes no prisoners.
 Quoting: LJM77


They ran water down that damaged spillway for many days and it only cut a small (relative to the whole size) chunk out of that hill/mountainside. It's not just made of soft tailings. There's a lot of rock in there.
freddie 0

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03/19/2017 09:36 PM
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What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


It is made up of soft tailings. It would cut away in minutes, or less, if there is failure. I've witnessed this up close. Water is extremely powerful...it takes no prisoners.
 Quoting: LJM77


They ran water down that damaged spillway for many days and it only cut a small (relative to the whole size) chunk out of that hill/mountainside. It's not just made of soft tailings. There's a lot of rock in there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


and we are definitely going to know what's under there soon enough.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:37 PM
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An instant ice age.

Which means nothing. And it is not the actual dam that will cut away. It is the weak wall where a spillway disconnected or eroded.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


Information. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You built this dam? Or have you worked on designs of a smaller scale with a more modern flow that comes directly from the dam itself?
LJM77

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03/19/2017 09:38 PM

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What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


It is made up of soft tailings. It would cut away in minutes, or less, if there is failure. I've witnessed this up close. Water is extremely powerful...it takes no prisoners.
 Quoting: LJM77


They ran water down that damaged spillway for many days and it only cut a small (relative to the whole size) chunk out of that hill/mountainside. It's not just made of soft tailings. There's a lot of rock in there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


I'm talking about the top of the spillways. If the MS fails or if the ES fails they will cut across to the dam and take it out. If the MS holds up then there is a chance. They are going to have to run the MS hard.
Anonymous Coward
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03/19/2017 09:40 PM
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What would stop the dam from cutting away if one of the spillways collapse?
 Quoting: LJM77


There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


It is made up of soft tailings. It would cut away in minutes, or less, if there is failure. I've witnessed this up close. Water is extremely powerful...it takes no prisoners.
 Quoting: LJM77


They ran water down that damaged spillway for many days and it only cut a small (relative to the whole size) chunk out of that hill/mountainside. It's not just made of soft tailings. There's a lot of rock in there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


That won't be how it fails. It will be when the entire MS gate shears off. There are so many micro cracks from the harmonics, I get irked that people are still below this dam.
Weather
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03/19/2017 09:40 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
The Weather may choose the dam to survive the year.

Slow warming, dry air, no rain is OK.

Extensive warm rainfall for several days means game over.

Idea is not to give the Weather extra opportunities to teach lessons.


coffee4
Crunch62
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03/19/2017 09:40 PM

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...


There is plenty of discussion. 800 bloody pages worth. If you missed the finer points, please skim it.

They are blessed it is still staniding now. And remember a dam failure does not mean the main dam collapses. Get that out of your head folks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


I've been following this thread from the beginning. I know what is in the thread. I just am asking a question. From my view, things don't look very dire, so I just wanted to know why you think it will fail!
 Quoting: bigD111


So you have been here from the beginning and learned not a thing in the process. You. Are. Breaking. My. Damn. Heart.

Water bad. Bounce bad. Snowpack bad. No mandatory evacuation bad.

Sorry. Like I told crunch. I am a bit frustrated. We could really use a miracle.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


It is a big Miracle the dam has lasted this long!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69123512


A true miracle would be if the precipitation forecasts are incorrect and the runoff/snowmelt is much less than anticipated. That is the only way I see that destruction of both spillways and ultimately - the dam - can be avoided.

The situation has been referenced here many times as a slow-motion trainwreck, and I believe that is likely an accurate description.
What the Hell?...
Aquarian Age

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03/19/2017 09:42 PM
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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
This 2 minute long video is titled "Dam-breach experiment, outburst flood from an overtopping lake (summary of USGS study)" and shows a pool of water above a sand dam, that the experimenters allow to breach the dam, and the catastrophic effects that erosion can have... the damage almost grows exponentially!

It's a fun video to watch, and it really put this whole dam experience in a different perspective for me.

I hope you enjoy it, and I hope the description is enough for people like me that hate watching youtube videos on a forum--I think this one is worth it though, because I read it in an Oroville thread almost a month ago--and it really stuck in my mind!

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]
freddie 0

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There's a damn big chunk of hill/mountainside between the spillway and the dam.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


It is made up of soft tailings. It would cut away in minutes, or less, if there is failure. I've witnessed this up close. Water is extremely powerful...it takes no prisoners.
 Quoting: LJM77


They ran water down that damaged spillway for many days and it only cut a small (relative to the whole size) chunk out of that hill/mountainside. It's not just made of soft tailings. There's a lot of rock in there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73421978


I'm talking about the top of the spillways. If the MS fails or if the ES fails they will cut across to the dam and take it out. If the MS holds up then there is a chance. They are going to have to run the MS hard.
 Quoting: LJM77


there is a good sized barrier wall separating the down slope
of the ES from the main body of the Dam. but the MS is
right at the main body of the Dam, and that is a good
candidate for disaster, with all the erosion that has
already happened there.
LJM77

User ID: 64480654
United States
03/19/2017 09:43 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
...


I beg to differ. If the MS or ES wall is breached it will make short work of cutting through the dam.
 Quoting: LJM77


Nope. The water is going to eat away at the spot that gave way and the water will flow. Unless the water goes over the actual dam, it will remain when all is said and done but there will be a huge gaping wound to the left of it (facing the dam).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


So, Mr. expert...what holds the walls of the little channel next to the dam in place? What keeps them from collapsing? I build lakes and dams. I understand water flow. You are talking out of your ass, respectfully.
 Quoting: LJM77


Information. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You built this dam? Or have you worked on designs of a smaller scale with a more modern flow that comes directly from the dam itself?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21185155


Much smaller scale, but I understand the progression
Crunch62
Dirt Farmer

User ID: 74446501
United States
03/19/2017 09:47 PM

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Re: California's Lake Oroville Main Spillway Severly Damaged/Eroded. Repairs Expected Soon.
The Weather may choose the dam to survive the year.

Slow warming, dry air, no rain is OK.

Extensive warm rainfall for several days means game over.

Idea is not to give the Weather extra opportunities to teach lessons.


coffee4
 Quoting: Weather 74513924


I think that DWR should take the opportunity to drop the lake elevation as far as they can using whatever means they have available. If that means running it out the spillway down to 813', they should do it.

Then they will have to dredge out the channel again to run the power plant.

But do they have the time for that, before the increased inflows arrive?
What the Hell?...


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