The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

Okay, I've found some material about this, but I'm not sure If that's what I want to post. Have to make sure I totally understand it first, right?
But meanwhile these thoughts occurred: To Whom was the sacrifice of Isaac going to be? Who provided the substitute? "Unless blood is poured out, no forgiveness takes place." Who forgives? Who were the animal sacrifices to? God is the one who provided, and the one who owns and provides everything that we have to give to Him. Analogous to His provision of His son, and ram-in the-thicket, etc. He provided, yet they were [voluntarily?] offered to Him ?
I will come back to this, and address other subjects I didn't reply to yet, if anybody's still around.

Of course the sacrifices were to God, but why were they needed in the first place? Because of sin. And yet Jesus still had to redeem us, but since he is God, it would be impossible to redeem us from himself. The sticking point for me is the Bible's own terminology of redemption and ransom, since no one pays them to themselves.

William Penn...in his amazing writing called "No Cross, No Crown," explains the sacrifice of Isaac so beautifully....

Here it is...... [link to www.hallvworthington.com]

The material is not copyrighted.

13. But Abraham obeyed. The consequence was, that God gave him a mighty land. This was the first reward of his obedience. The next was, a son in his old age; and, which greatened the blessing, after it had been, in nature, past the time of his wife's bearing of children (Gen 17:16-19). Yet God called for his darling, their only child, the joy of their age, the son of a miracle, and he upon whom the fulfilling of the promise made to Abraham did depend. For this son, I say, God called a mighty trial, which one would think might very well have overturned his faith and stumbled his integrity; at least have put him upon this dispute in himself. This command is unreasonable and cruel; it is the tempter's, it cannot be God's. For, is it to be thought that God gave me a son to make a sacrifice of him? that the father should be a butcher of his only child? Again, that He should require me to offer up the son of his own promise, by whom his covenant is to be performed; this is incredible. I say, thus Abraham might naturally enough have argued with the voice of God, and indulge his great affections to his beloved Isaac. But good old Abraham, who knew the voice that had promised him a son had not forgotten to know it when it required him back again; he disputes not, though it looked strange, and perhaps with some surprise and horror, as a man. He had learned to believe that God, that gave him a child by a miracle, could work another to preserve or restore him. His affections could not balance his duty, much less overcome his faith; for he received him in a way that would let him doubt of nothing that God had promised to him.

To the voice of this Almightiness he bows, builds an altar, binds his only son upon it, kindles the fire, and stretches forth his hand to take the knife; but the angel stopped the stroke. Hold, Abraham, your integrity is proved. What followed? A ram was sacrificed instead, and Isaac was his again. This shows how little serves, where all is resigned, and how little a sacrifice contents the Almighty, where the heart is approved. So that it is not the sacrifice that recommends the heart, but the heart that gives the sacrifice acceptance.

God often touches our best comforts, and calls for what we most love, and are least willing to part with. Not that He always take it utterly away, but to prove the soul's integrity, to caution us from excesses, and that we may remember God, the author of those blessings we possess, and live loose to them. I speak from my experience. The way to keep our enjoyments is to resign them; and though that is hard, it is sweet to see them returned, as Isaac was to his father Abraham, with more love and blessing than before. O stupid world! O worldly Christians, not only strangers, but enemies to this excellent faith! and while so, the rewards of it you can never know.

14. But Job rivals Abraham; his self-denial also was very noteworthy. For when the messengers of his afflictions came in great numbers upon him, one doleful story after another, until he was left almost as naked as when he was born; the first thing he did, he fell to the ground, and worshipped that power, and kissed that hand that stripped him; so far from murmuring, that he concludes his losses of estate and children with these words: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). O the deep faith, patience, and contentment of this excellent man! One would have thought the repeated news of catastrophes had been enough to have overset his confidence in God; but it did not; that staid him. But indeed he tells us why; his Redeemer lived; "I know," says he, "that my Redeemer lives" (Job 19:25-26). And it appeared he did; for He had redeemed him from the world. His heart was not in his worldly comforts. His hope lived above the joys of time and troubles of mortality; not tempted by the one, nor shaken by the other; but firmly believed, that when after his skin worms should have consumed his body, yet with his eyes he should see his God. Thus was the heart of Job both submitted to and comforted in the will of God.

Here you go.....

[link to www.hallvworthington.com]

Scroll down to the footnotes.....This is what they say....

1 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat; for on the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. There is a lot of chatter on the Internet saying that since Adam and Eve did not die, God lied. But Adam and Eve did die to the Life of God, not to the life that we know. The Life of God was to be in fellowship with, in the presence of, in the heavenly light, in paradise, energized by God, directed by God; they lost it all. The life we have in this physical world of earth, to where Adam and Eve were banished, is a death; we are dead — as Jesus said to a would-be disciple who begged off following him in order to bury his father: "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead." Mat 8:22. Obviously dead people cannot bury other people; so the dead are those dead to the life of God — not following the light of life, the life of God, Jesus, the light that enlightens all men. Now all people are in darkness, as they are in Adam in the transgression, and dead from that image, righteousness, and holiness, in which man was first was made. In this physical dimension, man is as different from God as a rat is different from man. We lost the spiritual image of God, which was usurped by the spiritual image of Satan. This Life in God that Adam and Eve lost is what Jesus came to restore to those who could believe in the true gospel, offering to become pure and free from all sin, offering union with God, offering to be translated into paradise, offering to partake in the divine nature, offering to be renewed in the image of God of righteousness and holiness. To be renewed into the life of God, which is eternal peace and joy, requires us to lose our selfish, sinful nature that is our fleshly life; the sinful nature is destroyed by God through the inward cross of self denial. But Christendom has lost sight of that true gospel and created a false salvation that leaves man dead in his sins. See John 14 and John 17 for more on the true gospel.

2 For God knows that on the day that you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. The original temptation was for man to think for himself, to decide what was good, and what was bad. So Adam and Eve decided they wanted to be wise like God, deciding what was good and evil for themselves. Now, up to this time, they only did as God told them. They heard the sound of his walking in the garden, they heard his voice. They did not decide what was "good" or "desirable" for themselves — they trusted God to make the decisions. But suddenly they could decide for themselves what they wanted, and what they didn't want. They immediately decided they were naked: I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself. Gen 3:10. See, they were beginning to think for themselves, looking out for Number One, who was no longer God. They were afraid too. They began to worry, to doubt, to fear. Supposedly they were to become wise like God, able to decide what to do for themselves; but this was a great loss. For the serpent became their God instead; the spirit of Satan usurped the Spirit of God in Adam and Eve. The spirit of Satan, who wants to make his own decisions, wants to be wise, wants to be God.

And so man, in hopes of becoming like God, only became like Satan — a rebel, an enemy of God, a slave to sin, a slave to the power of Satan; and now man must work hard for his food.

And so, man continues today, trying to be his own god. Man walks by his own mind, (which is enmity with God), and he walks after the imagination of his own heart; while he tries to make peace with God by ceremonies, rituals, reading scriptures, attending sect services, tithing, fasting, etc.; but he still walks after the imagination of his own heart. God tells us that walking after the imagination of our own hearts is worse than worshipping wooden or stone idols:

Because your fathers have forsaken me, said the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

And you have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, everyone of you walks after the imagination of his evil heart, and therefore they do not listen for me. Jer 16:11-12.

Each of us is part of the fallen human race, walking with a mind and imagination that instead of being in the spiritual image of God, is in the image of Satan and is incapable of being pleasing to God. Each of us is a slave to our wanting more (lusts), pride, sexual immorality, anger, pleasures, passions, etc.; each of us is a selfish, sinful being.

From the Word of the Lord within: "Religion has rejected the status of men;" all the world's religions ignore that man is a fallen creature. Instead the world's religions teach that we can become pleasing to God with some ritual, ceremony, prayer, meditation, etc.; none of which changes us from being defiled in our thoughts and unacceptable to God and heaven. Although we can hide our anger; although we can avoid committing adultery; although we can restrict our flesh from running to or reaching for evil; we cannot change the fact that we get angry, that we look at others with lust, that we want more, etc.; we are selfish creatures intent on pleasing ourselves. Only the power of God can remove our selfish human nature. To become pleasing to God; to rid ourselves of our defiled hearts; we must be completely changed by the power of God to receive a new heart, mind, and spirit. From the Word of the Lord within:

"Your thoughts are not my thoughts. At best your thoughts are a vain hiss. If we walk not according to the Divine nature, we are blind. Those who follow their own brain will weep and mourn; there will be great pain. The mind is a terrible thing. There is a blessing to make the cessation of the mind permanent. You must go on waiting, watching, and listening; then our hearts will be quiet by grace. We must grow in silence. We labor with a cursed mind for the carnal mind is neither subject to the law of God, nor can it be. You will receive a new heart and mind. Grow up into the mind of Christ, from which all good thoughts proceed. To know is not to think. To make decisions is to live in your carnal mind."

However, Jesus offers us a solution. He came to restore man to the spiritual image of God, to be able to enjoy his fellowship and direction again; which requires a man to crucify, (mortify, kill), his sinful nature on the inward cross of self-denial. No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless they deny themselves and pick up their cross every day. Further, from the Word of the Lord:

"He who is not on the cross is not worthy of me.
When I tell them they need to clean the inside of the cup, they sit and wonder.
When I tell them about the cross, they have no answer; they seem to have no desire.
He who is not on the cross is repulsive to me.
Those who have been crucified are through with sin as a motivator, and this must be felt from the inside.
There is no church in the world that Christ set up specifically. "

Christianity today is an enemy of the cross, falsely teaching that the cross is not necessary; and so their believers continue to sin and thus remain slaves to sin, John 8:34. The only cross of Christianity is just decoration, hanging on the wall or worn as jewelry. As children of Adam, those in Christianity were living in a state of damnation before they became believers; they remain damned after they become believers because they are still sinning and slaves to sin — their damnation does not slumber, remaining in the condemned state of Adam, unpurified, unholy, unrighteous, unjustified, unsanctified, unsaved.

Christianity leaves people living in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts of their minds, just like the rest of men; they are left in their sinful natures, walking according to the flesh, whose aim is satisfying things of the flesh; in their lusts, desires, affections, pleasures, pride, anger, vanity, fear, worries, plans, etc. If you live after the flesh [the sinful nature], you will die. Rom 8:13. By Christianity supposedly "saving" you in your sins, you have lost your chance to find the superior life of God: For whoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it. Mat 16:25 The purpose of this web site is to teach you how to receive the changing power of God, to become free of sin and enter into union with God as you are translated into his Kingdom, while on earth and then forever.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil in all men — cleansing them to reunite with them as they where they were before the fall, restored into God's spiritual image, and even beyond the state of Adam and Eve; beyond their state, where they were capable of falling to temptation, to a union with Christ, to the rest sitting in Christ, perfected and protected forever against falling to temptation.

3 Then they heard the sound of the LORD God moving in the orchard as a wind in a storm. This phrase is typically translated as "God walking in the garden in the cool of the day." However, as stated by The Net Bible: "moving" is more accurate than "walking, which assumes a God in human form with legs; and while "cool of the day" is the typical translation, but "in the wind of a storm" is just as accurate. God appearing in a storm, particularly for judgment, is supported by the following verses:

Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath, even a raging storm; it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. Jer 23:19

Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goes forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind; it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. Jer 30:23

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,... Job 38:1, 40:6

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power and will not at all acquit the wicked. The way of the LORD is in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. Nah 1:3

You will be visited by the LORD of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with storm and tempest and the flame of devouring fire. Isa 29:6
The voice of the LORD is upon the waters; the God of glory thunders; the LORD is upon many waters.
The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.
The voice of the LORD strikes and flashes forth lightning.
The voice of the LORD shakes the wilderness; the LORD shakes the wilderness of Kadesh. Psa 29:3,4,7,8

The voice of Your thunder was in the whirlwind; The lightnings lit up the world; The earth trembled and shook. Psa 77:18

Jesus said: The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell from where it comes, and where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

When suddenly a sound came from heaven like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Acts 2:2

4 the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock, and every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." dust shall be the serpent's food. Isa 65:25. From the Word of the Lord within: "the dust the devil eats is the physical manifestation of the spiritual." Man's physical body turns to dust. In Hell man's soul, the spiritual, is destroyed by God: fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10:28. Perhaps that explains the ferocious opposition that the devil applies to the true believer; he is greedy for his food, and I suppose all the demons live on man's spiritual decomposed soul. Now, as bad as that sounds, if it is the devil's only food, you can see why he in relentless, prowling around the camp, (true Christian people), like a roaring lion, seeking those whom he can devour. 1 Pet 5:8. George Fox posed an even greater question:

If their [those still sinning] god and prince's food is dust, and he goes upon his belly, then how will you disobedient ones, in whom he rules, go? [Fox says men in Hell will be going on their bellies, Mark 9:48 supports: Where the worm does not die.] What is your food but dust? [Fox says our food is the same of our prince's food]. For do you think you must fare better, or go better than your god and prince, that is out of truth, and there is no truth in him does? Oh, no; therefore obey truth, which the world's god and prince is out of; and the pure Spirit of God, that foul, unclean spirit is out of; and then you will have heavenly milk and wine, and the honey and honeycomb, and bread of life from heaven, by which you may live by Christ that gives it you, the prince of life, who destroys the prince of death, and his followers, that will not have Christ to rule over them.

In a letter to Justice Sawrey, warning him of the consequences of Hell for his cruel persecution the early Quakers, George Fox wrote: "How will you be gnawed and burned one day, when you shall feel the flame, and have the plagues of God poured upon you, and you begin to gnaw your tongue for pain, because of the plagues!"

5 And I will put enmity between you [serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He [a later seed (descendant) of the woman] shall bruise your head, [a later generation of the serpent's seed]. And you [serpent] shall bruise His [the woman's seed] heel.” Gen 3:15.

The seed of the woman is the Spirit of Jesus Christ, born of a woman, the seed of Eve.

The seed of the serpent is the selfish spirit in you, the sinful nature, the carnal mind.

The woman's seed Christ, was severely bruised when He tasted death for every man.

When you are purified, Jesus appears bringing you your salvation, the head of the serpent in you is crushed by Christ, thus to break his power and strength, and to destroy him and his works. (He, Christ, the seed of the woman, bruises the serpent's head in individual believers who carry their cross to purity.)

And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. Rom 16:20

From George Fox's Letter #172:

So everyone of us, that has come to the seed of God, that bruises the serpent's head, that led man from God, who is the prince of the world, the prince of darkness, and the prince of the air, the father of lies, a murderer from the beginning; the corrupter of mankind, the author of the separation from God, and the original of sin, the beginning of it, which led man from his dominion over the handiworks of God; which the royal seed Christ, destroys, and renews man again in the image of God, and brings him again to his dominion over the handiworks of God. And this hundreds of thousands are now witnessing; by which they come to be kings, and redeemed from the earth and come to be made kings upon the earth, in the image of God, over the handiworks of God, in the wisdom by which they were created....Among these Christ is king, which thousands witness. Among these he is king.

After your sinful nature has been crucified, Jesus appears [is revealed] in glory and power within you, to destroy the seed of the serpent. For this purpose the Son of God is revealed [in us], that he might destroy the works [sin] of the devil. 1 John 3:8. You become an entirely new creature; your soul is joined (married) with the Spirit of Christ to become one, [union] an entirely new creature. Before Christ is revealed, the man of sin, (the Spirit of Satan in you), is revealed within you, showing you all manner of evil on the earth; this is the abomination of desolation, standing in the your heart's temple, where it should not. But this is the end of your fleshly self, as Christ then appears and slays the residual spirit of Satan within you by the brightness of his coming, by his breath, and the splendor of his coming, by his crushing the head of Satan under his [and your] heel. The final judgment. The true baptism of the Holy Spirit: into the death of Christ. The sharing of his death. Then the sharing of his resurrection in you.

6 cursed is the ground because of you; you shall eat of it in sorrow and toil all the days of your life. It shall bring forth thorns and thistles for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you shall eat your bread. Consider this curse to be not only the physical curse, but a spiritual curse of man's heart as well for the heart of each man is a mirror of the earth:

God cursed the ground — which is also man's heart. Look at Mark 4:3-15, the Parable of The Sower — the ground is the heart. From the Voice of the Lord: "your heart is a mirror of the world." See George Fox's excellent writing on this concept in detail.
Man must work hard for his bread — Jesus said: I am the bread from heaven — man must work hard to hear the word of God, which is within his cursed heart — to hear and receive the bread from heaven.
Man must labor in sorrow, not joy for his bread — both his earthly bread and heavenly bread — he is in sorrow (mourns) laboring for his heavenly bread, for he sees his fallen condition, (knows he is poor in spirit).
The ground will bring forth thistles and thorns, and you shall eat the herb of the field— man's heart grows briars and thorns, which suppress the word of God within his heart — Out of the treasure of man's heart is evil or good. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorn bushes, nor do men gather grapes from a bramble bush. And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame; and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day. Isa 10:17
The kingdom of God that is within you, is like a mustard seed, which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs.
The other bigger herbs are the seeds and plants of evil in a man's heart — sown by the devil, the evil seedsman.
And until Christ came, the only ones who could receive the grace of God, were those who walked very close to fulfilling the law. But grace through Christ, allows us to go to the Light and Word within our hearts, to silently listen, to hear, to obey — and to then receive his changing grace to remove even the desire to sin from our hearts.

i sent you a PM

I appreciate everyone's efforts and inputs.

I am learning that I don't do well with reading large amounts of text on-line that are addressing multiple topics. Probably an age thing. :)

But I want to come back to something I asked many pages ago: How has what you believe affected your day-to-day life? Is there anything "actionable" in what is being said and read?

Last Edited by Life and Love on 10/12/2012 09:49 PM

the animal sacrifices were inadequate to redeem, but merely sufficed as reminders of debt and acknowledgement of same. "Even a brother cannot redeem a brother." Yet each human being/brother is priceless and beyond any human's ability to redeem, though a brother were to give his life, and everything he owned. [Even if he were a Rothschild.]

Through circumstances partly beyond his control, said bro. will have inherited and accumulated sin [shortcomings, imperfections], so that he will no longer satisfy God's perfect justice as a ransom. God created Adam and Eve perfect and they had the potential to produce another generation of perfect offspring, and so forth, but the opposite happened to result, through their free will [ Adam's, at least]. Who then is able to provide a ransom? And who is able to demand one? Not Satan, who was not the giver in 1st place, and who only rules by God's permission.
Satan made an accusation [he told Eve that God was a liar, and said humans were a faulty creation [ Book of Job] who would only serve God if he coddled them.] And, for the benefit of all observers, both in heaven and on earth, God has allowed time for Satan to prove these accusations, or not, in such thoroughness that these accusations can and need never again be raised.
I think brother-in-law marriage, [Levirite marriage], and many more principles come into it and I hope we can still discuss tomorrow.

The fact remains that nobody pays themselves redemption or ransom money, and that Satan did indeed have the power to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world, being "the god of this age". And if a brother cannot redeem a brother, then Jesus could not redeem us, yet scripture plainly says that's what he did.

Did you get my email?

regarding who is owner/ruler of the world:

The earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein. Psalm 24:1

. . . you may know that the earth is the LORD's.
Exodus 9:29

. . . for all the earth is Mine.
Exodus 19:5

The heavens are Yours, the earth also is Yours; the world and all its fullness, You have founded them. Psalm 89:11

Satan is ruler of the fallen world system, not the world.

I can't find one single scripture that states that Satan is ruler/authority over the world. I can't even find one that says Satan has the power to establish any kingdom.


in Genesis, MAN is given dominion over the world.

"The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to man." Psalm 115:16

It seems that during the temptation of Jesus that either Satan isn't sure He is the son of God, or he is testing Jesus' faith in the matter. "If you are the Son of God..."

There is some thought on the idea that the dominion of the world (while the world/earth/heavens are owned by God) rests in whomever claims it.

Very much agree that Satan had the power to offer kingdoms of the world to Jesus.

This was an attempt at a rough quote about' bro. redeeming bro'.
Here's the real thing:
Psalms 49: 7 Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him;
 8 (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite)

even here he is only god of this age

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

...and a prince is not a king

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Man was indeed given dominion, but lost it via sin. And this is not to say God does not have ultimate ownership, because even when man had dominion, nobody would claim that God did not.

I don't know how "the god of this age" can be interpreted as something that means the opposite, or how "the fallen world system" is not the world, or how his offer to Jesus of the kingdoms of the world was not to be taken seriously. I don't know how to make sense of paying redemption to oneself. I cannot fathom how Satan did not know who Jesus was for sure.

Not everything is going to be found on the surface, or spelled out for us so we don't have to connect dots. I've presented the case to the best of my ability, feeble as it may be judged, and I have no more to say.

it's difficult for me because I had been taught that it was trickery, the same trickery and word play that was used on Eve.

so, i hear that you are finished with it. that's ok. thanks for your effort.

II corinthians 4:4

god of this "world" or "age"

olam hazeh

"Olam HaZeh" - "This World;" the world in which we live, where each of us is given the opportunity to honor the Name of Hashem by performing "Mitzvot," commands of G-d, and learning and teaching Torah, according to his or her gifts, and behaving in an honest and decent manner with our fellow human beings.

Why Did Jesus Choose Neutrality?
Jesus’ neutrality regarding the politics of this world was well-grounded in Scriptural principles. Consider just two.
“Man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) That is how the Bible sums up the history of human rule. Remember, Jesus existed as a spirit in heaven long before he came to earth as a man. (John 17:5" So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".) He thus knew that man, however well-meaning, lacks the ability to care properly for the needs of billions of people; nor was he created by God to do so. (Jeremiah 10:23" I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.") Jesus knew that the solution to mankind’s problems lay elsewhere—not in human governments.

“The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) Do you find that statement startling? Many do. They think of sincere people who get involved in government because they want to make the world a better, safer place. Try as they might, though, even the most sincere rulers cannot overcome the influence of the one whom Jesus called “the ruler of this world.” (John 12:31" Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out"; 14:30" I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me, ") That is why Jesus said to one worldly politician: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36) Jesus was the prospective King of God’s heavenly government. Had Jesus mixed in politics, he would have sacrificed his loyalty to his Father’s government.

Did Jesus teach, then, that his followers have no obligation to earthly governments? On the contrary, he taught them how to find the right balance between their responsibilities toward God and their obligations toward secular governments.

from what i am gathering, where it says "ruler of the world" the word means "ruler of the opportunity to honor God in this place" or something to that effect.

it's not necessarily ruler of the world, or the world system, but more the ruler of the behavior of the people in the world.

Really?

Good question - which church is true then?

Satisfied with my answer .. good luck with living yours.

Interesting all the variance in interpretation of the same scriptures. This thread espouses one specific truth, but knowing this limited truth does not a gospel make, nor provide any authoritative path to true happiness.

Sorry ,Salt. Kinda tired and been hinting at adjourning til tomorrow, but always seems to be a reply as soon as I post and get sucked in again. Didn't mean to be rude.love, AC

thanks, i hear ya. i have been logged in but have house guests tonight, so not able to give my 100%

be back tomorrow

or "ruler of the behavior of the people in the world in relation to God"

it's a difficult concept to find words in English

The Word of God is simple. Be responsible for what you do and make other lives better.

Do the above and life gets real easy.

I'm reading so many "interpretations" going back and forth on this thread and guesses as to Adam and Eve and who should be 'blamed and why, yet God tells us what happened....

First, Adam didn't lie to Father nor did he pass the blame to Eve. Look - he answers God's questions truthfully and honestly. 

Two questions are asked: And he said, “1) Who told you that you were naked? 2) Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

Let's look at the first question:
And he (Father) said, “Who told you that you were naked?
The man said, “The woman you put here with me"
(Why and how did Eve tell Adam that she was naked?) "she took some and ate it" (What happened when she ate it?)“For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Eve ate the fruit, her eye(s) were then opened and she told Adam that he was naked.

Let's look at the second question:
"Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
(Adam said) "she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” 
Is this not what happened??
"She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it"
Adam didn't lie nor did he try to pass the buck to Eve. He stated exactly what happened.

Why do so many of us, especially women, not want to see the truth of this passage? The answer lies with our reactions to Paul's writings about women not teaching and our indoctrination by the beast of women's lib and feminism. 

Our Father tells Adam why and how the ground became cursed:
"To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’

It's right there. Because you listened to your wife AND ate of it. You should recognize the example of a woman teaching a man and usurping authority over him. This is the sin that led to the other, to his "eating," and the result of both was that dire and extreme but necessary and appropriate consequences were brought forth that remain to this day. 

11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:11-15

When a woman teaches a man she follows the woman's example in the garden, does she not? When a man permits a woman to teach him, does he not follow the example of the man in the garden? 

I am a woman, and therefore I am addressing my fellow sisters in Christ only. I pray that these words are carefully weighed and confirmation of their truth is sought independently, and that you understand their importance today. 





 

This thread is about hell and its related arguments, NOT about how to twist scripture into subjugating women behind fallible, sinful men. You clearly did not grasp the arguments already stated that refute your surface-skim opinion. Take your misogyny and love of slavery someplace else.

Is every thread supposed to be about "making a gospel" or "providing an authoritative path to true happiness"?

Or is this one just to discuss whether people get a second chance to be saved in the next life, using pertinent scripture passages to support each side?

If you'd like to start a thread about the topics of your preference, go right ahead.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/13/2012 08:09 AM

The point to be made is bolded and colored above.

The point you expressed is underlined and italicized above. Perhaps not adding the irrelevant part would have made your intended point a bit clearer.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/13/2012 08:23 AM