I really want a Christian to answer this...not a troll thread.

And might I suggest that if you complain about 'why would god send people to hell / punish them'...

The better question is - why would people live shitty lives, whether it be to 'get ahead', or 'satisfy urges'? How would such people think they are going to end up? If you live that type of life, you're damning yourself before god makes any such judgement.

I don't know whether heaven and hell exist, but I do know that I need to take responsibility for my own actions, and be a good person to help an earth that really needs it. Helping someone else will help them to help others. It's a battle of good and bad bacteria. They can both spread but which one will be dominant in the end? Which side do you want to be on? Would you rather your grandchildren have a better life than you, or not? Would you like your future generations to lead by the example you set?

I might be ass backwards here, but I just don't see why people keep coming up with the same 'punishment' argument. I can tell you that I for one, would rather see good spirits in good places. It's logical sense, whether taken literally or not.

Do you think you are a good person?
How do you think God sees you?
The 10 commandments is His standard. Lets pass through 5 of them and see how He sees you:

1) Have you ever told a lie?
2) Have you ever stolen anything (regardless of its value).
3) Have you ever used the name of God in vain? like omg etc...
4) If you have lusted, then you've committed adultery in your heart.
5) If you hated someone, the Bible says you are a murderer.

Probably you answered yes to all of these questions (if you are like all of us).
On Judgment Day you'll be guilty and end up in Hell.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

You need a Savior to save you from the wrath of God that is coming! That's why Jesus died in the cross.
Now you understand, if you not repent from your sins and believe that Jesus died on the cross for you (put your faith in Him) YOU WILL PERISH IN HELL. You works will not save you! Jesus will! I wish I could talk with you in person.

THEY DIDNT FOLLOW HIM!MOT TURNED AWAY FROM JESUS EVEN THOUGH THEY SAW!!!

You won't be guilty if you better yourself. This is what the accepting the savior thing is about. Once again - don't take it literally.

You can learn to be a good person. Yes of course I've broken all of those commandments. But I've LEARNED not to. Not through god even -- because it made my life better.

It seems as though God changes the rules without notice though. Ive heard countless stories of people on the brink suddenly finding God and peace. Most of these, if not all, were bad people by all accounts. Drunks,druggies, murderers, and so on.

So if all these people are inherently bad to start with, and they werent seeking God and living a Godless life, why does God then choose to come into their life when they hadnt asked? Which in turn begs the question, why...if I am adamantly searching, am I being neglected? Why, if I live a good life, help people in need if Im able, and dont judge, cant I get a scrap from the table the supposed evil people are eating at??

IAMTHEONE

Yeah of course people that are on that road realise that they need God. After they experience the road that they should not be on.

Thats RIGHT..and it blows FREE WILL RIGHT out of the water.

PAUL was not looking for GOD..he was KILOLING CHRISTIANS>.and yet..THOUGH he was NOT LOOKING..JESUS CONFRONTED him.

He was knocked off his horse and BLINDED...he didnt CHOOSE IT DID HE?

NO...

So where was HIS SO CALLED CHOICE?

Also it says "NO one comes to Jesus UNLESS the father DRAWS them"..so if you are NOT ONE OF THE "DRAWN"...what CHOICE do you have?

NONE..

THERE ARE NO "CHOICES" in this life.

We didnt ASK to be born IN SIN..GOD CHOSE it FOR us...he then CHOOSES WHO to FREE from it..

WE NEVER EVER EVER GET A CHOICE.

Nice job at changeing the letter of the laws.

Paul was killing christians thinking that he was doing right before God. He thaught that Christians were blaspheming God. Until He had that experienced. After he chose to follow God. He chose to go through those trials. He understood that Jesus was the son of God.

You're putting words into my mouth. That reply was childish, impersonal and mindless.

Look -- the point is that I don't know if I am christian, and for a long time I was atheist. But if you open your mind, you can learn a lot from religion while staying out of it.

A good question would be what do you personally have to gain by stomping on others beliefs without thought. I think that the best thing anyone could learn would be empathy for the beliefs of others. I'm not stomping on you for not being christian because once again I'm not even sure if I am. But one things for sure -- I've been able to derive information that helps me from the words of the Christian god.

Food for thought. No negativity.

see. believers talk... believing is for ones self

your all wrong

OP, it's sad to see this thread derailed the way it has....

You came here with an honest question that soooooo many share, and you've been answered with quoted scripture, "instructions" (i.e. do this, do that, or else) and ridicule. I have seen a couple people try to answer from the heart, but, all in all, you've been damned for even asking the question. Sad.

As I tried to offer a different perspective in my earlier posts, I was trying to convey an idea that even tho the 'signs and wonders' were written the way they were, we have no way of knowing IF any of them happened the way they were written, or at all. I know the Bible "says" all these wonderful things, and rightfully so one would question why the people of today cannot witness same - are we of something less today? Less deserving? Of course not.

Discerning fact from fiction is a long, hard road... and one that many will never travel, not in this lifetime anyway.




This poster above believes that something exists outside of the All That Is (God), which I find hard to understand since the All That Is is....all there is, there is nothing more. Or maybe s/he means the all this is not.... again, which is not, by definition.

Divide and conquer -- have we not had enough of that?

Kismet

He did NOT choose to follow Jesus..JESUS chose HIM.

If jesus had NOT pulled him up he would NEVER have followed Jesus..he would have gone on killing GOOD PEOPLE..thinking he was doing God a service....when in fact he was working AGAINST God.

But thats what most christians do today..turning people AWAY from the REAL god with their threats of torture and doom and death..

But Jesus WILL intervene...VERY soon...and you will realise that..well intentioned you MAY BE>.like PAUL was..you are IN FACT working OPPOSITE to what JESUS REALLY NEEDS to be DONE.

When you realise you are KILLING GOOD PEOPLE...it will be because JESUS has knocked YOU off your high horse..like he had to do to paul...

You blew my mind with that last few sentences! I had never thought of that in the way you just put it.

We didnt ask to be born in sin, God chose that for us, then chooses whom to free from it.

The implications of just that statement are huge for me. While my heart still says there must be some sort of God, I definitely respect your point of view. Wow.

Everyone is drawn to God. Because you are in his image. They feel a tug in their hearts. They feel a warfare within them. Even now I guarantee you feel it.Have you ever gone to church and all of sudden tears start falling from your eyes. That's the Holy Spirit touching you that you may come to him. He does not force himself on no one. But he is always there with his arm open. One has to choose to go to him.

OP the holy ghost is your teacher. the holy ghost will help you understand the words.

Ask him for help. The holy ghost is another living force working for GOD and Jesus. I think these three are also one.

You should believe in a living force that can perform miracles. Not Buddha!! that boodah statue can't save you from damnation or help you with your everyday challenges.

Its sad there was a monk who burned himself alive and he ended up in hell. The monk thought Budah was waiting for him.

do you read scripture?

when did all the miracles, plagues, etc... cause ANYONE to repent and believe?

they saw the miracles of christ yet put him to death.

when sacrifices justified transgressors; both increased.

since christ came a lamb slain god has determined that faith in that which cannot be seen is the only way, and that by the foolishness of preaching.

This relates to an earlier post of mine.... when a poster said you weren't finding God because you were not reading the Bible, or something to that effect - telling you to find God in a book..... when I asked should we not seek spirit thru spirit, I was called a non-believer by that poster :)

Point is, in the examples of drunks, druggies, murderers, and so on - Were these people sitting around reading the Bible when they 'found' God. None of the heros of the Old Testament were sitting around reading the Bible when they 'found' God because the book didn't exist.

Sure, people are finding other people's definitions of what God should or could be in books, but they found the idea of God within themselves because that is where spirit is.

Kismet

Yes there is alot of people that use threat bc they know how to explain. I am threatning anyone. I'm just clarifying
better yet let me tell you how I came to christ.


When I was born my mother and father brought me before the alter in a christian church to give me as an offering to God. They are christians and thats what thier taught.

In the spiritual when you give someone to God believe me he will protect in ways you could not imagine.

through out my life my mother would force me to go to church I hated it. When I was 14 I stopped going to church I said I do not want this religious crap. And I didn't go again until I had my experience.

I was 20 when this happened, I had no knowledge of the spiritual or supernatural. Just what was told to me as a child and stories of the bible that my mother would read me. I was dating this girl, and she was going through a difficult time. Depressed, and sad, I was outside her where she lived. I don't know how the topic came into play but I asked her if she wanted Jesus Christ in her Heart to help her with what she going through and she said YES. That's when everything changed. She starts screaming so loud and saying NO, NO, No I don't want Jesus in my heart. If you ever seen a person who possessed that's what was hapenning but at the time I did not about that.

All of a sudden The Power of God comes upon me so Powerful it was like voltage of electricity came upon my body. It was so intense that my body was trembling because of this power. No fear what soever it was this supernatural protection over me. This was the first time I experienced God's presence. When this happened and she looked at me she threw herself on her knees and covered her face screaming. I was so confused bc I had no idea what was happening. I tried touch her shoulder when I did she starts screaming that I was burning her. I was confused and had no idea what was happening I left bc at that moment I got kinda iffy.

When I get home I tell my mother my experience. And she says son what you just experienced was the Holy Spirit protecting you. She tells Go to church maybe God has a message for you. Mind you I had not gone to church since I was 14.

I decided to go to church for the first time by my will. When I get there They are singing praises and worship to God. I was in th back lol. Anyways the drummer stops playing his drums and gets on the Mic. And says the Lord has a message for someone and starts going into detail regarding the events that had just happened. My mother did not even know the person to say it was her. It struck me so hard I was like a child crying. Then the pastor comes up and says whoever wants to accept Jesus Christ as your savior please come up. I was in the back and put my head down and I thaught I have no need to go up there I believe.
So I bowed my head and thats when something amazing happened I heard from my right side Do Not Be Afraid Go Up I lifted my head so fast and turned to my right nobody was there. I was freaked out. So hesitating I go up and he tells me to pray this. Father I come in the name of Jesus Christ please forgive of my sins. Jesus I accept you as my savior please com into my. The moment I said that That experience that I had before The Power Of God comes upon me again. Thats when I fall to floor when I felt so light. When I was on the floor was when I experienced being born of his spirit he was no longer surrounding but filling me from within that is my testimony. Ever since then it's been a relationship with the lord. I have laughed with him, I have cried with him, I have joked around and he has laughed with me, I have been mad at him, I have experienced him. A relationship with him not religion. Ever since then He has revealed so much to regarding the spiritual realm. He is my Dad bc the relationship and the closeness that I have to him I can call him Dad. This is my testimony of how he brought me to him. And may it be something that brings others to him as well

God Bless

You are one Big Fucked-Up Piece of work, opie...


Gonna play games about God, make pretenses and deceive these well-meaning Laodicean Christians.


Don't really matter what you think or believe, although I KNOW you are an asshole for sure. Even assholes can Love Christ, but you state you don't Believe....


The Strait Gate is closed.
Not yet a Believer? Gonna have to wait for Jesus To Return and then get with the new program. Gotta Know WHO HE IS to actually BE A Christian.

Don't care how much Paulian Scripture you quote or for any of your further remarks.


Christ Witnesses that HE Teaches by use of the parable in order that they who can't Hear The Gospel in their hearts, won't understand, Lest He Should Have To Heal Them...

God Knows your heart, or lack thereof...

In Matthew 13 HE Witnesses why you can't come to Believe...
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



It ain't about what you'll accept or allow of God...
Loving HIM and submitting to HIS Will is what defines a Born-Again Christian, which is the only kind of Christian God Recognizes and Abides With...

So because one group of people decided they didnt wanna believe, every generation afterwards should suffer?

Lemme ask you this. How many people who seen those miracles actually grew closer to God? The Bible says even some Egyptians left among the Israelites right?

Just because many chose not to believe, many chose to start believing right? My point is at least they were given the option to make their choice. We dont seem to get that option.

Do you realize the thousands of years between Moses and Jesus? Its only been 2k since Jesus. Those events had a huge width of space between them.

What part of "became human, died for us, rose again" is not "at least minimal effort"?

You didn't check that link I gave earlier explaining why bad things happen in the world, either.

And if you don't believe there are conditions to love, then what about that girl you hypothetically chased and she ignored you?

If anyone is picking and choosing Bible passages, the things you've posted so far would point to you. As for seeking, God keeps saying "here it is" but you keep your eyes clamped shut and go "Where is it? Why won't you tell me?"

I dare say your definition of "honest seeking" isn't the same as God's. It sounds more like you're looking for Santa Claus or a genie in a lamp.

Good luck with that.

The miracle that matters is the Leap Of Faith.
Trusting God Fully so that you can give HIM your life and accept HIS Will for the rest of your days.

Your carnal heart can only be defeated By God The Father.
Being Born-Again is the only miracle that matters.


Have to let God BE God and surrender your heart to HIM.
Not likely you are seeking HIM with a sincere desire, so this means nothing to you...

Nothing but self is also all you will ever achieve.

In these Final Moments you will understand soon that YahWeh and Christ Jesus are Very Real and all your posturing and game-playing has left you nothing but alone.

Spoken like a true Christian. "Believe me or you are an asshole".

Is that what the Bible teaches? I thought it taught that "all those who seek Him, will find Him"? Perhaps it even states not to judge, but I see by your very first sentence that you must have skipped over that one in Sunday school.

I never said I was an unbeliever either. Perhaps a read of my initial post will help you on that. This whole thread has zero to do with whether I believe the religion as a whole either.

I merely asked everyones opinion on why there doesnt seem to be miracles on a grand scale anymore. Noone wins a debate on the merits of religion as a whole because theres not enough proof for either side. Its why its been debated and fought over for millenia.

You seem overly angry for no reason at all. Just because I dont subscribe to your exact views is no reason to berate me with mindless name calling.

You know...do unto others an all. Or maybe you missed that day in Sunday school too, who knows.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus is all well and good....providing you actually HAVE one for real.

How can most of the ones who claim they have a personal relationship with the author of love be the most hate filled judgmental callous and hellfire torture breathing ones out there?

The hypocrisy is permeated in every church I have ever been to.

Thinking they are good and holy when they by their words and their action only show they are evil and unholy?.

They sit up on a pedastal and proclaim doom and torture and death as the invention of the Author of Love.

How can this be?

Isnt satan the author of doom and torture and death?

Was it not satan who was the first one to use pride which led to hate?

Then why do so many "Christians" and churches preach pride and hate and doom and death to all who dont follow their interpretation of things?

Isnt that satans way of doing things?

Ive seen thousands of so called "Born again spirit filled" christians hating eachother and everyone else with a hate and vehemence that satan would be very proud of.


Its all about threats of torture in a horrifying dungeon that GOD created. Cant God reach people without having to resort to torture as a threat?

Since when did God get into the blackmail business?

Isnt blackmail and torture SATANS domain?

Isnt it satans tactic to DEMAND people worship him on pain of death?

Isnt it satans wish and plan to MARK everyone on the planet and FORCE people to worship him as god ON PAIN OF DEATH?

Didnt Jesus say that the best way to tell good apart from evil is by its fruits or its results?

So how come the "Born again spirit filled" ones who claim to be full of the love of God preach the very SAME doctrine satan preaches,,,which is..worship ME or DIE?

(And the antichrist can only kill you once..it is said God will keep you alive in agony forever which is far worse)

How can God claim the high ground if he uses the SAME and WORSE tactics..threats..and FEAR that satan uses?

Either satan and god are one and the same being..

OR...

Satan has very cunnungly programmed most christians into accepting God has the right to be exactly what satan is.

A terrifying, megolomaniac, worship demanding, torturing, merciless tyrant.

God CANNOT be that.

So what is the answer?

Jesus was right when he warned of sending a strong delusion.

"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and will all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Is not what The churches teach and the current doctrine portraying God to be the same or worse than satan is about as deluded as you can get.?

force and fear and control and manipulation are blatant tools of darkness.

So is blackmail.

No one can deny that.

It makes me wonder why it is used so much by christians.

Its taught that good and bad fruit cannot grow on the same tree.

Foul and fresh water cannot flow from the same tap.

So how is LOVE and BLACKMAIL allowed to coexist together in current teachings?

If you have real love dwelling inside you right away you know just what darkness is.

Darkness does not know itself as dark until the light comes on.

Darkness is seen clearly in the bright glare of the light of LOVE.

If you continue in pride and contention and arguments and spite....if you still have a cold hard judgmental attitude towards others who do not agree with you...if you think of God as being a blackmailer and tyrant whos only effective way of gaining followers is to threaten them with torture...sorry to say..but all those things are of DARKNESS and proves beyond doubt..by their fruits..that the light has NOT come on inside.

Many can claim they said a prayer that changed them. But did they change?

Their main desire is to beat others over the head with threats of hell in the same way they feel God beat THEM over the head with threats of hell.

This is NOT love it is FORCE.

This is why NO love is shown BY them because NO love was shown TO them.

You can ONLY give what you have recieved.

If what you give is harsh judgment and you hold an elite attitude of "I am saved and THEY will burn" then you are only repeating the mindset of satan who is all about threats and force and blackmail.

God is LOVE and he who DWELLS in love ABIDES in him..IN LOVE..and IN God there is NO DARKNESS AT ALL.

If your entire christian walk is dedicated to telling others they will burn in hell or that they have to cower and cringe and obey laws and do this or that or GOD will get them...then you are preaching darkness because darkness is in fact what you have recieved within and so its all you can give and show without.

But if you let Jesus reign IN you and His love is REAL to you then you could not even THINK about threatening others nor would you have pride and spite.

Jesus said "I am MEEK and LOWLY of heart..LEARN from me"

So few DO..although they THINK they do but their words and their actions betray the true state of whats within.

If what flows OUT of you is darkness then its darkness that reigns within NOT light or LOVE.

Clean and dirty water cannot flow from the same tap.

You cannot say you LOVE God and HATE others. The two do not mix.

You cannot say you have LOVE within if you show PRIDE and spite without. Its only an indicator that NOTHING has changed within you.

This is the reason so many see christians as evil spite filled pride obsessed contentious hypocrites.

Because MOST of them ARE, as they cannot help but show their TRUE nature to the world. The nature of DARKNESS is evident even to those who still dwell in it and who have never met Jesus.

The world judges christians this way because EVIL knows its own. When something comes along that is MORE evil than the world the world sees this and knowing by NATURE the things of darkness is very quick to point it out.

The world LOATHES hypocrites.

So all christians out there reading this please be aware of what you say and do. ARE you being compassionate and loving? Or are you judging and hating and condemning?

Next time you feel like reacting in anger or spite or saying "YOU will BURN IN HELL for having such a veiw" keep in mind the pharisees acted the same way and we all know what Jesus thought of THEM.

Ponder this.

What a well thought out post. Although this thread has been hijacked somewhat, Im enjoying the spirited conversation taking place.

You bring alot of food for thought there! I appreciate you taking the time to write all that, and now Im gonna read it again lol

Don't put your eyes on people when God is still doing a job within a person of God. He is still correcting many because it is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. Put your eyes On Jesus not a man is who full of errors.

While I do subscribe to the assumption that as we turned away from Gods principles as a nation, things have gotten progressively worse...I still disagree on your view of potential prophets.

So..if they are happening and we just arent being told about it, how on earth can God expect us to find him if we are thwarted at every turn??

If everyone who controls things are in bed with the devil, and they control all information but dont allow us to have it, isnt God kinda helping the Devil?

Im searching, an honest search, and have asked God of only one thing...HIM. Its all I have ever asked. For Him to ignore me and instead come into the hearts of Godless people seems redundant. Those people werent searching yet theyve supposedly had God come into their life. Here I am searching, begging for something to give my life meaning, or humanity as a whole rather, and HE is too busy saving evil people who are evil for the sake of being evil while leaving us "good and decent" people behind.

Im gen Y and it aint FAIR lol