Notes from an "alternate universe". Introduction to a new way of thinking.

How we learn, perceive, interact, etc., is from the relationships of things.

When we dream we are learning how a dream-like thing relates to something else.

When we wake up we are thinking about one or more "real life" elements and rediscovering the relationships it has with other things like itself.

When we travel through time (so to speak) we are taking one thing from that time and finding out about how it relates to something else similar to it.

When we alter our reality the same thing happens as when we learn how to do something - we take a single example and learn how it interacts with the things around it.

Some people learn faster than others not because of intelligence but because they can understand these relationships more easily.

I ask you for this detail, above, because it is vitally important for the next step in discovering another reality for yourself.

When you can see how one thing relates to an other thing (in your example above) then you are beginning to learn how to perceive as if you are already in that reality.

Get involved in the drama of a dream element and you will eventually find yourself asleep.

Get involved in the drama of an other reality and you will eventually find yourself there.

If I did not know some of the drama that occurs here in this world it would not be so easy to come back. My creative imagination would have taken me to an other world with a new set of dramatic elements.

I think, when you take your example and delve more into the drama of the specifics then a good physical symbol of your new reality will come to you. (Just make sure it's as unique as a work of art or as unexpected as a fresh baseball.)

Hi.

Feng shui is an interpretation of how physical aspects of experience work, in terms of relationships and their effect on what we call our reality.

As I mentioned before the physical environment eventually becomes mapped to our brains so the placement of things can be important in this way (if you are looking to control your experience more).

If you just want to sleep under a beam for the night it is probably fine to do so but doing it over many days could have some effect on your perspective (when the beam becomes mapped in your field of thinking).

Kua numbers probably don't have any validity. But it may work... to keep some "masters" employed.

It sounds pretty weird.

But when you value things not because of their physical properties but for their relationships, then it may start to make some sense.

For example.. have you ever visited somewhere for the first time that you could have sworn looked exactly like a place in an other city? Or maybe had some deja vu? Or smelled something that brought back some old memories? Or met someone that reminded you so much of someone else?

We perceive relationships, not the physical objects. The appearance of physicality is what, you could say, is added on after.

Take a look at street scene image here: [link to ecsys.org]

The image to the right of it with the geometrical forms, is what you actually perceive.

If you are in a different city and perceive of something similar to that shape there will be a deja vu sensation, even if the people, colors, and other details that you think you see look very different from what you experienced before.

Now, with dreams pretty much the same thing is happening. You dream of you being a cop busting a streetwalker and think it's weird because you're thinking of the way it looks (or feels) rather than the geometry of relationships.

(Yeah, I know it sounds boring. That's why we embellish it with our own drama. Ever sleep and hear a sound in the room that you made part of the dream? Same thing. You're making the geometry more exciting.)

That means that you will take these complex relationship forms and try to make sense out of it. It could be that "cop" had a similar relationship value to "redness" and "tranny" to "atmosphere", along with other elements in the dream.

We might interpret a relationship (in "waking" reality) to be someone drinking a glass of water and then it makes sense to us because we can see how it relates to other elements from that reality.

When we are dreaming we can also see how elements make sense (i.e., understand the dream when we are dreaming), but upon waking it does not make sense because we do not then see how those elements relate to other elements.

Every moment we perceive anew. When you remember something you are actually re-presenting it now, not thinking of something that happened before.

If I took away part of your "geometry of relationships" in your current reality you would experience an entirely different reality, because the relationships would be entirely different. Kind of like if I added some garlic to your omelette.

It's the same thing that happens when you can't perceive all of the relationships in the dream (i.e., it doesn't make sense).

What do you mean?

You don't have to do anything.

Cat in box = box exists (cat does not)
Meowing cat in box = meow and box exist (cat does not)
Cat in your hands = cat consciousness does not exist
You are cat = cat consciousness
Your friend holding cat = your friend and cat exist
Cat without meow, atop box = cat does not meow
Your friend with mouth shut = friend does not talk

And for a bonus:
Box = box cannot be opened
Open box = box cannot be closed

There is no "cat point of view" unless you are the cat. If the cat speaks then there is speech, not a point of view. If your friend speaks there is no intelligence, only what you experience.

Although you can say that consciousness is 'created' when there is a relationship between one thing and an other thing it must be realized that neither of these things exist by themselves.

It's easy to say that your friend has consciousness because, obviously, he can talk, think, act for himself, etc. But the universe does not act that way.

The "universe" (or whatever the hell you want to call it) does not waste energy. You could say that, at ever moment, it is created anew. The cat does not exist as what you know of as a cat until it needs to.

Similarly, although you know your heart is working (because you are alive, and it's obvious) you do not have a heart until it is a part of your experience. You have aspects of what you consider your heart but neither the beating, the blood, the valves, etc., are "real".

Whatever you are experiencing, "exists" but the things by themselves do not exist independently.

You could say that nothing exists until it interacts with something else.

It doesn't need to.

The one law of the universe (for lack of better words) that we understand is "no energy is indepedent of your perspective".

The entire universe exists within your current perception. Some might call it holographic. But what would this actually mean? That everything in the universe is a hologram and the universe is wasting an infinite amount of energy?

No. It would mean that the entire universe is contained within your current perspective, and need no exist until it needs to but only for that aspect that it needs.

That means you can have sunlight with no Sun. And when you are looking at the Sun, the energy of the Sun is very minimal. It's only "Sun temperature" when it needs to be.

No energy is wasted because the universe is the most efficient thing you could possibly imagine. (It has to be.)

I know this all sounds confusing and ridiculous (and impossible). That's why I don't like to talk about some things :)

But there it is.

Yes, you could say that. There's weird stuff everywhere. A lot of things we don't really understand, but it's a different kind of environment than what you find here.

You can create your own haunted place by calling it haunted. Then someone will see what they expect to see and then it will become "reality". The spookier the place is the better. We perceive what was already there, and what is already there is anything you think is (until it's not anymore).

You could say that there's a scientific explanation for what is going on, but it's not the kind of science you're used to (unless you're willing to integrate the sciences, I think).

Last Edited by Chaol on 06/18/2011 04:27 AM

Hmm...

Yes Chaol I have, but I don't really understand a whole lot of it. So I thought of a different approach in case I could grasp something.....:/ Maybe I'm just too stuck in my reality :)

Understood.

Well, back to your original question about where I come from. I'm not really sure how to answer that.

Universes don't really exist. Perspective does. You could say that I come from an alternate perspective but it's more accurate to say that I am an aspect of your perspective.

It's easy to think of life on other planets or what an other galaxy might be like. But the reality is more disappointing for some, but perhaps more exciting once you really understand what's going on.

It means that human-like beings aren't living on other worlds (which is more like the fantasy that we want to see) but it also means those 'distant worlds' are much easier to experience because there's no real distance between your world and it.

The easy answer is that your people and my people lived in the same world but began to split about 200 years ago when someone discovered a very important concept.

In one world, the person discovered it and there was a chain reaction.

In the other world, the person discovered it and nothing much happened.

You could say that our two worlds are the same planet but there are many differences.

It is more accurate, however, to say that our 2 worlds are contained in one-another. There is no need for 1 thing to be truly separate from an other.

Some random thoughts Chaol, if you can comment where you can?

I have been wanting to ask why you'd choose this perspective over some "perfect" existance, if you had the tools to do so.

Am I right in assuming that you can only shift perspective in a way that makes sense through all relationships thus far? I'm thinking back to the wave here. We can go slightly "off" the current "layout" (finding it hard to get a word here.. set of static relationships at this now point), and in fact do every instant, creating a new set of relationships. The difference between "reality" and "fantasy", is that one uses the least ammount of energy to "go to", fantasy would just be inefficent.

Out realities could be bridged fairly easily, by introducing the ecys model, which therefore maps the two? (This doesn't feel quite right).

Without a radical jump in perception (ie death), only small changes in perception can be made.

Wha is your view of death, and thereafter?

Does that mean you are in "the natural state" like Sri Nisargadatta said. I've read a lot of the thread, and the website today, and it does sound a bit like that. It is hard to accept that there is no existence independent of perception, or "the self", but Nisargadatta insists it is so and that all one needs to access this is earnestness and a refusal to be deceived into imagining that I am anything that can be in my perception, which also implies that the subject is beyond perception and therefore, in a particular sense as stated above, does not "exist".

Are we in some type of supercomputer, and at the same time we are the programmer. Thus space and time are just calculations, points in strings?
In what type of reality would the programmer be living?

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

So you're saying that reality, as we render it, is using some highly optimized algorithms to skip rendering parts that aren't used or needed? I can sorta understand that. Or at least the programmer in me can understand it. The physicist is just running around in circles. He'll get back to you when he's calmed down.

Ok, so the cat isn't really rendered in the box if you're not looking at it, but somewhere, something is keeping track of the cat, because when you open the box, a cat usually is usually rendered. At least for me anyway. I mean, I've never put a cat into a box and pulled out a rabbit, for instance. Something is keeping track of all of that hidden, non-rendered state?

So what would be involved with switching out say a cat for a rabbit in the box? In that - you put a cat in a box, you close the box, you then go away and do something, you open the box and you pull out a rabbit. How would you go about doing that? Is it possible to do so?

Gonna take a while to catch up on this one...looks interesting though.

Thanks Chaol. This is starting to actually become clearer. This may sound silly but I can "feel" the map/location of things in the mind.

A single representation comes to mind that feels like it unifies that experience. Its a simple pendulum. The pendulum feels like it represents time spent doing what i love - golf and competition, less time with my family, a kids toy - I love my kids, ups and downs of competition, airplanes taking off and landing, and my golf swing.

So now I need to make a pendulum then we can add some rules to it.

I'm not sure yet about Chaols perspective on reality as yet, but I think this is absolutely how our brains render the reality we experience from what I've read. We don't really "see" reality (which Chaol says is not actually there at all anyway). It's something we take for fact, but if you really get to the nitting gritty, it's both fascinating and horrifying :P

Our brains have been proven to "reuse" images to save "compute" time... So if we walk into a room we know well, most of it isn't "rendered" from scratch, but from memory I believe.

I might revisit this and do some more research...

Had an interesting experience after reading your post regarding pregnant women and how they experience a reality populated by scads of pregnant women.

I decided to try to "key in" something that I wanted to see (or manifest if you like). I chose a red hat. I concentrated on the color red in all of its hues and variations, I thought of a hat, a hat on many different types of people, a hat on a billboard etc etc.

I did this for several minutes and then I completely let go of the thought. What remained was a very heightened sensitivity to the color red, it seemed to be everywhere I looked, it jumped out from the background, that was quite interesting in and of itself.

I proceeded on my errands for the day, went to the car-wash, and then on to the grocery store. I had almost forgotten about my red hat when I found myself at the cash register next to a big weight lifter guy and yes he was wearing a bright red hat.

So there is no cat, unless you are the cat, unless you take on the perspective of the cat.

Just to belabor it a a bit more. There is no cat as an "independent agent" outside of you. There is no "other" outside of you.

To put it more accurately there is no other outside of ME.

Even those who clearly have a more advanced understanding of the concepts that you are putting forth...even the "teacher" is an expression of the "student"?

That makes me feel a bit lonely and uncomfortable.

One of the best posts I ever read. I thought these EXACT same thoughts...

Hi Chaol,

Glad you're back! I'm a reader from almost the beginning of the thread. Of course I've applied some of it and can state it had real, powerful effects. They weren't always what I intended though, some were more like what I didn't want.

The main challenge in applying ec as I see it is in mapping representations and their relationships to understand what effect changing them will have. It's not enough to say just "try it", there are millions of representations in our daily life. Figuring out that it's the sock with a hole in the left foot that needs to be fixed can take a LONG time via trial and error.

Previously you were reluctant to share advanced mapping techniques. Judging from your latest replies I'll guess you still are. You're still dancing around it. So, let's try something else that most will benefit from.

I want to change my body to something healthier, fitter, less fat, younger, etc...

We all know exercise and heating healthy "work". Of course those are representations so that also confirms ec to some extent. But the part that is most appealing about using ec is "doing it as efficiently as possible". In other words I'd rather not go to spin class 6 times a week for the next 12 months.

So, can you help me through it with ec?

I think many reading the thread will be able to relate.

I should mention from my past experience, that without fully knowing what you're doing, playing with ec to change your body can lead to disastrous results. I will only undertake this if the road ahead is crystal clear, without any ambiguity.

I am the cat that you all have been saying doesn't exist.

I would just like you to know that, not only do I exist but you are merely projections of me.

That's all for now,

Meow!

Hi.

There is no reality more perfect that the one you're experiencing now.

By this, I don't mean that you have the perfect job or the perfect life according to your hopes and dreams. I mean that your reality is perfectly represented according to the value of every experience you've had, are having, or will have.*

The process that creates your reality is perfect, you could say. What you decide to experience is entirely your choice.

In a "perfect existence" there would be no drama. It is the drama, however, that creates reality. Without drama (or, the interplay of representations) nothing seems to exist.

So, we create "imperfections" in order to exist. We would not exist otherwise.

*Although there is no real past or future, only aspects of what you would call the present that seem different. Like for example if you were looking at your friend and they suddenly changed shape to something that you did not recognize. Your mind would make a relative narrative that placed that perception in the future (like when the person was much older). But actually there's no real separation between all of these perceptions.




The more relative another reality is to the one you're in the easier it is to experience it.

Thus, your experience of the 'next' moment which is actually you "shifting" to an other reality. You do not go from one moment to the next. You go from one reality to the next.

You do the same thing that I do without realizing it.

The difference is that I can relate more distant realities through the use of tools.

Your Monday the 13th is related to your Wednesday the 15th in a way that makes sense to you.

You can experience your crazy friend Carol's life and your stable friend Mike's life in the same day, because the path from one reality to an other makes sense to you.

Meaning, you can see how one reality is related to another.

I can see how my world is related to yours and can thus experience both.

But, again, you do the same thing that I do when you dream. You perceive the abstract representation of something from your waking experience then the world around it. Next thing you know, you're in an other reality with a different set of experiences.

It doesn't matter how different the two realities are. You simply have to find a way to make it relative to your current experience.

That is, to make the energy to perceive that distant reality very minimal. (It is minimal when it makes sense to perceive it next in your current reality.)

There is no separation of fantasy from reality. The two are the same. The real question here is, "What is most related to my current experience?". If it is not at all related you may call it fantasy.

But these "fantasies" can easily come to your experience when you make it logical to experience it in your current reality.



When you perceive you are perceiving abstract relationships, not things. You dress it up with physicality in order to make sense of it.

There is no jump from life to death. It may not seem like it, but to the person experiencing "death" there is a very logical progression of experience from one reality to an other.

Radical "jumps" are not possible. (It would only seem like a quantum leap from the outside.)

I simply find a field of relationships from this world and represent it in my world.

Sometimes, though, the world that my girlfriend is in and the world that this particular forum is in is not the same world.

So then I will leave "bookmarks" in this forum that I will be able to get back here easily. It may be that I leave behind some representation like a trail of numbers that other people develop relationships with (e.g., "try to solve the puzzle") in order to create a unique field of relationships that will mark my position. Or it could be something else.

You do all of this yourself, without realizing it. If you go through an old box of memories, for example, your current perspective would change. Maybe you would remember things that you had forgotten, or thoughts that you had before would come to you.

You would then be experiencing the "past" anew from the representations (photos, for example).

The bridges are all around you. And it possible to learn how to utilize them in order to change your experience.

How would you change your experience to something as distant as the time of the dino-saurs? You would represent that experience in your current reality and allow it to develop a relationship with your current representations. Because it is not so logical to your current experience you would probably need several iterations of the representation. This is where some people may get lost (in the representation.. they make it too relative to their current experience and end up not experiencing anything new. A little imagination is needed here.)




Death, as you seem to speak of it, consists of two types of experiences.

The one dying, and the one not dying. But it is not what you think.

If the person that seems to be dying has some kind of relationship with you (as your friend, idol, someone you've looked at or smelled before, etc.) then it is you that is dying. Or, more accurately, an aspect of you that is dying.

From the perspective of the person that seems to be dying there is a logical progression of experience to an other reality.

This is the same progression that you take at every moment.

Is the "you" from last month dead?

The difference is that the person that seems to be dying is experiencing something that is not relative to their current experience (this particular brand of physicality) and thus seems to be escaping it.

You've escaped last month successfully. And they've escaped this physicality successfully. But you're both still very much alive.

Hi. I don't know much about what you speak but I don't think I'm in any 'state' different from what you are in.

"Earnestness" and "refusal to be deceived..." are quite ambiguous, I think. How would one do that when we all have a different definition for those terms?

I'm not speaking against Sri Nisargadatta but anyone that doesn't tell you how you can do it probably either doesn't know or doesn't want you to know.

A lot of belief systems exist on hope that such things exist. But the more it is defined and used the more useful it can be.

However, some belief systems are easier to understand simply because they are not defined (we each interpret it how we want to interpret it).

I know that Ecsys can be quite difficult to follow, but I don't really believe in things that have no clear definition or that aren't logical.

There is no higher state than the one you're in now. Hard to believe, I know. When you change your "state" to whatever, then that will be the highest state with all things considered.

I think the difference between things that exist and things that do not exist is not important. It is kind of a paradox and not really worth thinking about simply because the other side of the argument does not exist (i.e., cannot be represented, and thus not communicated).

We're not "in" anything. We simply perceive the field of relationships that comprise our existence.

However, in your analogy we would be the ones inventing the language and programming in it. There is no computer other than the language. Space and time would not exist until measured, and when measured will be the measurements themselves rather than independent operations. We break down a single measurement, you could say, and call the different aspects "space", "time", and others.

The measurement is perspective.

When we "perceive" the field of relationships we are measuring as we look at one aspect in relation to an other.

All inventions of humanity are a way for us to understand reality and what is really going on in a strange kind of reverse-engineering. Through trial and error, eventually we are able to reach the very essence of how creation is possible.

Computers and technology are some of the more exciting ways that we're doing that.

You could say that. (Although it would be the only algorithm, from our understanding.)



Yes. You are keeping track.

It only needs to be logical from your current field of experience.



Of course you pull out a rabbit sometimes. But you don't experience it that way.

For example (and example only) if you pull out a cat from the box 100 times the 53rd time might have been a rabbit. But your "mind" would fill in the logical narrative so that it makes sense to you. Instead of you seeing a rabbit appear by itself with no explanation you experience your friend admitting to putting the rabbit in there (even if that's not what "really" happened).

We do not perceive that which is not logical to our experience. (Which is why we're not perceiving everything-at-once.)

If there is no explanation that would make sense to you then you simply do not experience it. Meaning, you don't see the rabbit that appeared on the 53rd pull. Perhaps you experience only a cat that had rabbit-like qualities or simply did not want to come out at all, or your friend knocking on the door with a shirt that has a rabbit logo, for example.

Excellent. Then the new reality is starting to take shape :)



Sure. Just make sure your creation is unique. (In that the only value it has is the one you are currently assigning to it rather than something that was used before for something else.)

There is much to this.

Patterns of experience, the fractal universe, the periodic table of elements, etc.

Jenny wonders why she keeps meeting the same guys. Karen wonders why there is uniformity between one noble gas and the next. John ponders the laws of physics. Iggy wonders why he can't 'break free' from his reality.

When you walk into the a room the experience is "rendered" from what is easiest to experience, all things considered. It could be a past memory or a future event, for example.

Someone who experiences a future event regarding Spot the dog, for example, is actually perceiving the most logical thing according to their current experience. It could be that looking at or touching Spot makes it relative.

When we think of something that seems to be in the past we are actually perceiving an aspect of what it is now (i.e., closer to the current experience).

When you remember an event, for example, you're not actually remembering how you experienced it at the time but perceiving an aspect of your current experience. This aspect has a quality which makes it seem like a past event but is actually a current event.

Good story. I hope you didn't laugh when you saw the guy in the red hat ;)

I am very much enjoying the "golf pro transformation project"

So, just as a point of clarification when one "assigns" a meaning to a new reality linking symbol, practically speaking how would you do that? As you build it would you be thinking of what it will represent? do you mediate over it? with the new meaning in mind?