For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

Your inability to resist clicking on threads about things you don't believe in make children look like mature adults. Atheists suck as human beings.

Resurrection happened before no? Matt 27:52 . 1And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [/liveleak]54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God." The blessed hope is that he comes for his "bride" the church who should be eagerly awaiting her groom. Could not the saints " beheaded" be, believers converted after witnessing the catching away "rapture"? This would surely get you beheaded in a "beast" state. Those who endured until the "second coming" then would be worthy of white robes I'm sure of it

The Rapture is the removal of the Bride of Christ from the world so God can turn his focus back to Israel, to finish its judgments, as well as to punish the unbelieving world. The church is neither of those. "Therefore, comfort each other with these words", and "Pray that you will be worthy to escape all these things".

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/02/2013 10:01 AM

Agreed OP, so take comfort that I support you. Maranatha

Sorry, I misunderstood your last statement about those who come to faith after the Rapture.

We're does it say every person that believes in the doctrine of Christ will be beheaded? You know, those that know the truth.

Some are already beheaded and standing beside Gods throne today asking how long until their blood will be avenged. Gods witnesses will be killed too.

But where does it say ALL believers in Christ will be beheaded?

The scene in heaven where the souls of beheaded believers ask for vengeance is in Revelation, during the judgments, not the beheaded or martyred of all generations. The Bible promises persecution for believers in general, but does not specify the type.

Who said all believers in Christ will be beheaded anyway?

I though a read a post recently that said in essence that Christians aren't appointed to wrath and that why they will be removed instead of be beheaded. Looks like that post has been edited now.

How do we know that some of what's written in revelation hasn't already started? In Rev 12 those first few events described have already happened... Satans fall.. Christ's birth.. etc.

So you're theories are waiting for a rider on a white horse I take it before anything else that is written can happen?

Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God. But throughout this age we have been appointed to the "wrath" of man and Satan. And if a post was edited, it wasn't me, because only paid members can do things like that (and even then, I think they can only erase posts, not edit them).

When I read Revelation, I don't see how anything comes close to being as extreme and global as the judgments of even the Seals. Jesus said that there would be significant events BEFORE the Tribulation would begin and described them as "birth pangs", and I agree we're definitely seeing that.

I'm not waiting for anyone on a white horse; Jesus will come for his Bride just appearing in the atmosphere and taking us up to meet him. No horse involved in that event. That's Who and what we're waiting for.

An interesting article: [link to gracethrufaith.com]

7th Seal.......6th trumpet judgment.

People have already taken the mark and sold themselves out to satan. They will not repent.


Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million, and I heard the number of them.

And thus I saw the horses in the vision; those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

By these three plagues a THIRD OF MANKIND WAS KILLED----by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

But THE REST OF MANKIND, WHO WERE NOT KILLED BY THESE PLAGUES, DID NOT REPENT of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver ,brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev. 9: 13-21)


The population of the world has been under severe wrath from God for the first 6 trumpet judgments......yet they still will not repent. The reason is simple.....they have already taken the mark and given themselves over to satan.


The abomination of desolation and persecution by the man of evil took place earlier........prior to God's wrath.


The midpoint of Daniel's 70th week is not at the 7th trumpet as you have claimed. With just the 6th trumpet.....one third of the world's population has recently perished......and people are still shaking their fist at God. They will not repent.


An during the 5th trumpet......they were tormented by locusts for 5 months......receiving terrible stings......experiencing much pain....seeking death but not allowed.


They will not repent. Why? They have already received the mark and given themselves over to satan.

Start your own thread, okay? This one is for countering lies about the pre-trib view.

Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]


1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation


First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:



This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament


Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


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[link to www.fether.net]

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I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal: Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:



So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal: The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?



Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,



We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:



So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.

Luke 17:26–29 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will also be in the days of the Human: People ate, drank, and married, right up to the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and wiped them all out. Likewise as in the days of Lot: they ate and drank, they bought and sold, they planted and built, right up to the day when Lot left Sodom, and fire and sulfur rained down from the sky and wiped them all out."

1 Thes. 5:1–11 Sisters and brothers, we really don't need to write to you about times and seasons, because you already know that the Day of the Master comes like a thief in the night. When they say "peace and safety", sudden ruin will come upon them like labor pains and they will not escape. But you, on the other hand, are not in the dark, that this Day should surprise you like a thief. You are all of the light and the daytime, not the darkness and the night. So don't doze off like the rest but watch and be sensible. For those who doze off sleep at night and the drunks get drunk at night; but we are of the day and must be sensible, putting on the torso armor of faith and love, and the helmet of the hope of salvation. Because God did not appoint us to suffer his anger but to acquire salvation by means of our Master Jesus the Anointed who died for our sakes, so that whether we are alert or dozing off we will simultaneously live together with him. So comfort each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.

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Once the judgments begin, including the Seals, life will change dramatically. People will NOT be going about business as usual, or saying "peace and safety". And THEY will not escape... but WE will!

Notice also that in spite of this Day not surprising us like a thief, we are nonetheless told to WATCH. Don't "doze off"; don't stop watching; don't listen to those who would rob you of "the crown of righteousness" Paul said would be given to "those who long for HIS appearing" rather than that of the Antichrist.

The economy must function, nations must still exist as sovereign entities, people must be going about their daily lives, right up to THE VERY DAY that destruction rains down while we rise up. Doom on a truly Biblical scale cannot arrive until the moment we rise and wrath begins to poor out. This is what the scriptures teach.

End 6th Trumpet:


"But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent.......(Rev 9: 20)


THE REST OF MANKIND.........already sold out to satan.





Why then would the 7th Trumpet be located at the midpoint..... involving persecution by the man of evil to get people to take the mark???? Everyone is already shaking their fists at God.

I have explained this over and over. My response is not going to change, any more than your repeated questions will change.

People have shaken their fists at God since Eden. That hardly conflicts with when the Mark will be required.

Have you started your own thread yet?

Following Gods command in Revelation 18:4 is the most pressing issue at the moment. The fall of Babylon the Great is at the doors. Those who are wise will follow the instructions of the LORD. Amen.

We haven't even reached chapter 4. Nothing like what is described in all those chapters between 4 and 18 has happened yet.

That's the thing with eschatological interpretation, if it's wrong than everything about the end will be wrong. The book of Revelation isn't in chronological order.

Revelation 14 gives a basic outline of major end-time events. The 3 angel messages frame the major events of the end times.

The 1st angel message announces the end - Revelation 14:6-7
This matches with what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:14:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."

When the end comes the event that signals it will be what the 2nd angel message says in Revelation 14:8:

"And another angel followed them, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine off the wrath of her fornication."

The fall of Babylon the great is what Isaiah the prophet saw in Isaiah 13. It is what begins the "DAY OF THE LORD". I would advise you to study it.

Also if you read Revelation 17, you will see that the 10 kings destroy Babylon the Great and subsquently give their power and authority to the Beast. (Revelation 17:12-14)

According to Daniel 7, The beast kingdom (fourth beast) with the 10 horns is what will tread down the whole entire earth and break it into pieces.

The 10 kings only come on the scene after Babylon the Great is destroyed. And when the 10 kings come on the scene, the little horn (the antichrist) appears after them.

If you read Revelation 17:3, you will see that the woman (babylon the great) is sitting upon a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. But in the description the horns are not crowned. Why? Because Babylon the Great hasn't been destroyed yet. Horns symbolize authority and rulership. It's not till you turn over to Revelation 13, when the antichrist appears, that you see the 10 horns crowned.

"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name." Revelation 13:1

The fall of Babylon the Great is what plunges the world into the time of the end. It is what allows the antichrist to come to power and take over the world. Thus we see that the 3rd angel message of Revelation 14 concerns what will happen after Babylon the great is destroyed, which is the issuing of the mark of the beast.

"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forhead or in his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presene of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb." Revelation 14:9-10

A proper understanding of the time of the end will make everything come into focus. But the whole counsel of God is needed in order to understand it. You can't understand the last book of the Bible, unless you understand the 65 books that come before it. The prophetic scriptures are especially needed for understanding.

Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the minor prophets contain so much wealth in regards to properly understanding the time of the end that you will be totally clueless unless the Holy Spirit reveals it's truth to you.

I've only skimmed the surface my friend. But back to my original post. You must understand that knowing who Babylon the Great is and following the command God gives to "His people" in Revelation 18:4 is what is most crucial.

Such good posts by the OP. I think there is confusion as to the purpose of the 70 weeks. I understand that the 70 weeks is God's way of dealing with the Jews for the most part. Also, we are instructed BY JESUS to pray that we may escape the time of trial that is to come upon the earth. Ask yourself: Why would Jesus say such a thing? Because it will be the most severe suffering ever on the earth...so if he instructs this, I will absolutely pray for that escape. The OP is absolutely correct in stating that the church does not go through the punishing, as the focus goes from the church age back to Israel. Also, it is a MYSTERY. We don't understand why God has orchestrated it that way, but he has. It is our blessed hope and we are to pray to escape the time of trial. I pray this for myself and my family. I think the OP has done an awesome job laying out, point by point the reasons for the pre-trib rapture. We are always told to watch. And anyone who has truly studied this is aware of the comparison of the Jewish wedding customs and the symbolism behind that. I also find it interesting that the Messianic Jews that teach the End Times are also on the same page as the Pre-trib Rapture. And the way they lay it out is identical to the OP...right down to the Jewish wedding customs/Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Those of us who believe in the Pre-Trib rapture certainly have studied it from all aspects and the Holy Spirit keeps pointing out things that leave no doubt of the Rapture...I also think there is the possibility that in the first part of Revelation, there is the comment by Jesus saying "Come up hither"...and that could also be a clue as to the timing. Again, thank you OP...for your insightful posts. I certainly hope I can receive the crown of righteousness...and I will cast my crown and kneel before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!!

And your view is infallible?

Everybody thinks they have a lock on Revelation, but everybody is probably wrong at one point or another. You can assert that Rev. isn't in chronological order AT ALL, but I can also assert that Rev. is chronological according to the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls. Further, I can assert that nothing like even the Seal judgments has happened yet. So regardless of your assertions or mine, the fact is that these things have not taken place.

I've given my view of Rev. over and over; now you've given yours.



I totally agree with this. The problem is that you are no more authoritative than I am, to say which view is "proper".

Fantastic post!!

Thanks!



Again, thank you. Your kind remarks are like drops of cool water on a parched tongue. May God richly bless you, and surely you will receive the crown of righteousness for all who long for His appearing. May he come today!

And your rebuttal to my response to it is...?

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/04/2013 09:50 AM

One other thing OP...the Bible talks about life going on normally (even though there are still wars/ violence going on ...people marrying, commerce going on (buying and selling, etc. Life is going on right up to the time of the Anti-Christ. In order for the Anti-Christ to take power, he has to remove that possibility of commerce...of everyone being able to buy or sell...unless they have the mark. So mid-tribulation or towards the end of it this doesn't start going on - it IS ALREADY going on. Life is not going on normally with commerce, which means the Anti-Christ is in power. And when this initially takes place, it happens suddenly...this scenario can only mean it takes place not in the mid or end of the trib but right at the beginning. And since we are told to watch for our blessed hope (Jesus at the rapture) when most of mankind is dying or being killed, that's not a hopeful situation. No one would be hopeful in that mess. When we watch, we are instructed to watch for Jesus. That means he's coming for us.

No rebuttal OP. (?) Everything you say and others in support of you is spot on!

The AC comes to impersonate Christ. Thus at first he will pose as a savior, as someone to protect them from the "sudden destruction" that happens at the Rapture. Jesus said that his coming as a thief will be "as in the days of Noah/Lot", when people had no idea that the judgment of God was about to rain down upon them, and God snatched his people out just in the nick of time.

There will be a "peace" of sorts after the initial shock, but life will certainly not be as it always has been. As you said, the AC will control commerce globally and openly. He will have power for 7 years, beginning with a treaty of that length, and then he will violate that treaty halfway through.

When I look at all the detail of the seal and trumpet judgments, I see nothing close to them having happened already or happening now.

I have stated clearly and repeatedly that it is the real Christ, NOT the Antichrist, that we are to look for, and any other rapture view except pre-trib has us looking for the Antichrist. I have also explained that when Paul told the Thessalonians to "comfort each other with these words", the clear context is that they had been disturbed by a forged letter claiming that they had missed the Rapture and would now suffer through the wrath of God. Paul wrote to dispel that rumor and set them straight. The "comfort" is that their hope was in Jesus snatching them away and they would, as Jesus said, "escape all these things".

If you believe we're already at the midpoint, then you too believe the Rapture is due at any time. So what problem do you have with what I believe, since both of us are looking for Jesus right now?

The reason I asked is because the "fantastic" post is something I disagreed with. Both views can't be right. So I'm confused as to why you called the other post fantastic.

Anyway, thanks.

This is real simple, the rapture definitely comes after the tribulation..

You can twist the words however you want but that is a fact.

What part of AFTER do you not understand?

Matthew 24:29

immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

^ Pretty much sums it up..

YOU twist the words. What part of "escape all these things" don't YOU understand?

Been over Mat. 24 many times already. Also pointed out that THE ENTIRETY OF PROPHECY IS NOT LIMITED TO MAT. 24.