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Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?

 
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 04:09 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
So, regarding the Hoagland/Hoagland-friend possible witness:

Back when we first started talking about Hoagland's disappearance possibly being connected to the case, and AC posted this, which I only noticed now:

"I think it was 56 (?) riverside. There's several pieces of video of cops surrounding a white house. It's also where you see 2 people emerging from the woods carrying some heavy bag.

But 56 Riverside is Roy Low's place; just looked it up for the first time:

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 41026925


3 things I'd like to address here:
1) the footage of the 2 people coming out the woods.
2) The K9 "hit" mentioned in the report and
3) Possible ATV escape routes.

1) The address of the white house is more like 6 Riverside, on the stretch between Apex glass the corner of Washington - all of which were searched during the search for Roig's phone.

2) The K9 hit on property that adjoins the firehouse - that excludes Roy Low (who lives further down Riverside) but the back end of the Firehouse property butts up to Treadwell park.

3) Looking over the Newtown map I did notice ATV trails going through the woods in the area between the school, Treadwell park and Riverside and Philo Curtis Roads.

In fact, you can easily make out on the 2007 color map or the 2002 B&W map where ATVs have been running though the woods and crossing the swampy parts.

Newtown Map (not google) [link to maps.newtown-ct.gov]

Find the baseball diamond to the east of the school then keep going East - you'll see the trails especially where they cross the stream.

One of them is very distinct and can be followed to 48 Riverside drive which belongs to a Mark Reid. The trails do go all over so it would have been easy to disappear in those woods and pop out anywhere on Riverside or Philo Curtis they wanted to.

Everyone keeps talking about Rocky Glen but that would require crossing 2 busy roads to get to. Treadwell is right next to the school making a getaway much easier.
 Quoting: FlashBuzzkill


Hard to know where civilian K9 hit was; however, the woman referred to the property as being "used in the past" as an escape route from the area--whatever that means.

At any rate, the police K9 hit was in the woods, with the dog pulling hard away from the side of the school and into that section of woods, i.e. in the direction of Apex Glass as opposed to in the direction of Treadwell. Realizing of course there could be multiple suspects scattering in different directions.

At any rate, the ping at Apex is highly interesting. I certainly would not personally choose Treadwell over Rocky Glen under any circumstances. Treadwell can be entered literally anywhere along the circumference, whereas Rocky Glen has only a handful of access points and none of them accessible by police car.

Rocky Glen is by far the larger, strategic choice (not saying whoever did it was smart enough to make it).

But the cellphone ping is going to keep me looking on a trajectory going from SHS to Apex, for now.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 04:13 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
You could easily have a stash of clothing and supplies hidden in Rocky Glen with 0 chance of anyone discovering it, days in advance.

Treadwell is a high-use area (as you said, full of ATV and/or hiking trails), right by a sports field, much sparser tree cover. Rocky Glen is densely forested, with far fewer people accessing it judging by the lack of obviously human activity.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 04:22 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
1) The address of the white house is more like 6 Riverside, on the stretch between Apex glass the corner of Washington - all of which were searched during the search for Roig's phone.

 Quoting: FlashBuzzkill


Maybe the AC meant "5/6 Riverside Dr." Makes sense.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 05:14 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
In this photo, two of the houses police surrounded, guns drawn, are circled; the bridge to Rocky Glen is quite close:

[link to oi42.tinypic.com]

Here's video of the white house being searched:

[link to www.youtube.com]

That rather convenient driveway between the red and white houses (both of which were surrounded by police) runs all the way from the Sandy Hook School woods to Riverside; from the point at where it hits Riverside, the distance to the Rocky Glen bridge is 0.127 miles. That's about 2.5 minutes, without even trying.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 05:19 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Note: The white house is 6 Riverside Road.

The red house has an Apex Glass sign in front of it.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 05:26 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Put another way, the Apex Glass-related properties are about the half-way point along a straight line between Sandy Hook School and the Rocky Glen bridge.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 05:36 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Here's the bridge:

[link to www.naturallyamazing.com]


And this is the kind of cover we're talking:

[link to static.panoramio.com]
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2014 07:59 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I posted this on page one but posting it again as it may link into how or why Roig saw "the substitute teacher" fumbling for keys.
Could they both have been out in the hall?

Kaitlin Roig, a first-grade teacher, lived through the horror that began when she heard shots during a meeting -- and was hailed as a hero for shepherding 15 young students to safety.

She told ABC News she rushed to her classroom, locked the door and barricaded her students in a bathroom.



[link to www.ctpost.com]
FlashBuzzkill

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01/20/2014 10:44 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I posted this on page one but posting it again as it may link into how or why Roig saw "the substitute teacher" fumbling for keys.
Could they both have been out in the hall?


[link to www.ctpost.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34763230


Holy crap! The report mentions Vicky Soto in the back of the room fumbling with an envelope that had the key in it. Is everyone aware room 10 is connected to room 12? Did Roig see the gunman in room 10? Something just clicked here.

One teacher talked about how morale was low at school and recent firings and that one teacher was involved in a nasty divorce situation.

Add in the part about Roig talking to someone from Florida who was coming up to see her?

It's getting to be a soap opera/murder mystery.

Last Edited by FlashBuzzkill on 01/20/2014 10:46 PM
early to bed, early to rise, makes one a day laborer
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 12:20 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Roig's phone was pinged...halfway to Rocky Glen State Park.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 09:16 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I posted this on page one but posting it again as it may link into how or why Roig saw "the substitute teacher" fumbling for keys.
Could they both have been out in the hall?


[link to www.ctpost.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34763230


Holy crap! The report mentions Vicky Soto in the back of the room fumbling with an envelope that had the key in it. Is everyone aware room 10 is connected to room 12? Did Roig see the gunman in room 10? Something just clicked here.

One teacher talked about how morale was low at school and recent firings and that one teacher was involved in a nasty divorce situation.

Add in the part about Roig talking to someone from Florida who was coming up to see her?

It's getting to be a soap opera/murder mystery.
 Quoting: FlashBuzzkill


Did the report state both that "the substitute teacher" and Soto were seen fumbling in envelopes for their classroom keys? If so, who is attributed with the account of Soto doing the fumbling? If Roig actually saw "the substitute teacher" (Rousseau) fumbling for her key at the back of Room 8, that could only mean that the doors between Rooms 8, 10, and 12 were all open at some point during the shooting.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 10:19 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
The report about Roig's ex-boyfriend (?) being told by Roig that the substitute teacher was fumbling for a key doesn't specify that Roig saw the teacher doing this. We'd have to ck the report from the teacher on the other side of Rousseau's room and see if possibly she is the one who saw Rousseau fumbling; it's also possible Rousseau was found reaching for the key and that this news somehow got out, I suppose.
FlashBuzzkill

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01/21/2014 12:27 PM

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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Very much agree.

Another thing that just stood out for me is one kid in Soto's room whose account was "consistent with the shooter kicking in the door."

I could swear I saw that the doors on the classroom side open outward, and many teachers have said "you have to step out in the hall to lock the door" (which wouldn't apply if they opened inward).

So by kicking in the door, does that mean the door between Soto's and Roussea's rooms? And does that mean there was also a door between Roig's and Soto's rooms? I believe in Roig's statement she said there was, but I have to double check.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 53224505


The doors to the hallway do open outward - there's no way you could kick in one of those doors, especially not 112lb Adam BUT I'm fairly sure you are correct - there is a door between class 12 and class 10. Which would mean the gunman had to go through Roig's room to get to room 10.
Perhaps the keys they were looking for were the ones which locked the door between the rooms.
early to bed, early to rise, makes one a day laborer
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 01:14 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Very much agree.

Another thing that just stood out for me is one kid in Soto's room whose account was "consistent with the shooter kicking in the door."

I could swear I saw that the doors on the classroom side open outward, and many teachers have said "you have to step out in the hall to lock the door" (which wouldn't apply if they opened inward).

So by kicking in the door, does that mean the door between Soto's and Roussea's rooms? And does that mean there was also a door between Roig's and Soto's rooms? I believe in Roig's statement she said there was, but I have to double check.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 53224505


The doors to the hallway do open outward - there's no way you could kick in one of those doors, especially not 112lb Adam BUT I'm fairly sure you are correct - there is a door between class 12 and class 10. Which would mean the gunman had to go through Roig's room to get to room 10.
Perhaps the keys they were looking for were the ones which locked the door between the rooms.
 Quoting: FlashBuzzkill


My guess is a shooter went from Rousseau's into Soto's.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 03:18 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Adding this to this thread too so all maps are included:

I would have made good sense for those fleeing to run between 6 Riverside and 10 Riverside (Apex Glass), because directly across Riverside at that point is a patch of woods--the only immediate point in that section of Riverside, in fact, where that is true.

[link to oi39.tinypic.com]

The main risk then (after crossing Riverside), is hanging by the big tree marked with an X, and waiting for the right moment to get to the bridge:

[link to oi41.tinypic.com]
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 03:30 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Very much agree.

Another thing that just stood out for me is one kid in Soto's room whose account was "consistent with the shooter kicking in the door."

I could swear I saw that the doors on the classroom side open outward, and many teachers have said "you have to step out in the hall to lock the door" (which wouldn't apply if they opened inward).

So by kicking in the door, does that mean the door between Soto's and Roussea's rooms? And does that mean there was also a door between Roig's and Soto's rooms? I believe in Roig's statement she said there was, but I have to double check.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 53224505


The doors to the hallway do open outward - there's no way you could kick in one of those doors, especially not 112lb Adam BUT I'm fairly sure you are correct - there is a door between class 12 and class 10. Which would mean the gunman had to go through Roig's room to get to room 10.
Perhaps the keys they were looking for were the ones which locked the door between the rooms.
 Quoting: FlashBuzzkill


My guess is a shooter went from Rousseau's into Soto's.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48919823


Or he could have done both, too. But I agree with you that a shooter moving between Roig's and Soto's is a good explanation for the cellphone path.
Anonymous Coward
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01/21/2014 11:43 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I'm going with a voluntary ditch of the phone in order to stall LE, who could be expected to (and did) converge on those properties, spending an inordinate amount of time clearing them. By the time they realized no shooter was holed up inside the properties, it was far too late.

You know, this whole "multiple shooters" thing probably has as much to do with Roig's phone suddenly moving on its own away from the school, as anything.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 10:12 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
My biggest question with Roig is what she could have possibly told police, that were so busy making sure the area was safe and evacuating an entire school, that made them drop what they were doing to look for her phone.

There other big question is why was she concerned about her phone unless she absolutely knew or saw it taken?

Why did she call an ex who just happened to have worked there and why did he and his friends inform LE that she called?

Did they think she was somehow involved? Most people would just assume it was an innocent call between friends yet they informed LE about the call and made statements, that leads me to believe that they thought her call warranted investigation.

IMO, the Roig incident is somehow tied to this and she knows more or saw more and it's being covered up.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 10:34 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
My biggest question with Roig is what she could have possibly told police, that were so busy making sure the area was safe and evacuating an entire school, that made them drop what they were doing to look for her phone.

There other big question is why was she concerned about her phone unless she absolutely knew or saw it taken?

Why did she call an ex who just happened to have worked there and why did he and his friends inform LE that she called?

Did they think she was somehow involved? Most people would just assume it was an innocent call between friends yet they informed LE about the call and made statements, that leads me to believe that they thought her call warranted investigation.

IMO, the Roig incident is somehow tied to this and she knows more or saw more and it's being covered up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34763230


I think one of the only explanations for police concern over Roig's phone is their belief in what she said: "A gunman might have taken my phone."

That's really the only reason to surround and search two or more area homes--they think shooters could be inside.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 10:37 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Why did she call an ex who just happened to have worked there and why did he and his friends inform LE that she called?

Did they think she was somehow involved? Most people would just assume it was an innocent call between friends yet they informed LE about the call and made statements, that leads me to believe that they thought her call warranted investigation.

IMO, the Roig incident is somehow tied to this and she knows more or saw more and it's being covered up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 34763230


Totally agree. And if in fact the information got to him before her phone was taken--that's never been specified--it means she called him and told him she heard shots, and that Rousseau was fumbling for keys, almost the moment it was happening or directly after.

I think it's possible all or some of the teachers in rooms 12, 10 and 8 were interacting with one another as they were going into lockdown. Maybe those who survived feel guilty about whatever happened during those moments.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 10:39 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Wasn't it said that Ms. Soto was found to the back left of the classroom? What if she was trying to get into Roig's room?

Maybe Roig's room DID lock. All along we've thought it didn't; but maybe it was the only one who did, and maybe that's the real reason no one in her room was harmed. Maybe she barricaded the side door--not the bathroom. Maybe she said a gunman took her phone in order to make it seem as if she had been in just as much danger that day as anyone else.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I always thought the "barricaded the bathroom door first" part was odd, because clearly Roig was in the bathroom with the kids (or it seems so).

Isn't it more likely she barricaded the side door between her and Soto's room?

If a shooter really "kicked in the door" between Rousseau's room and Soto's, that would possibly indicate the doors open to the north (i.e. Room 8 door opens into Room 10, and Room 10 door opens into Room 12, Roig's).

Meaning, it would make sense to barricade that side door. That's a door you COULD barricade before locking yourself in the bathroom; it never made sense that she barricaded the bathroom door and then somehow squeezed in there with the kids.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I always thought the "barricaded the bathroom door first" part was odd, because clearly Roig was in the bathroom with the kids (or it seems so).

Isn't it more likely she barricaded the side door between her and Soto's room?

If a shooter really "kicked in the door" between Rousseau's room and Soto's, that would possibly indicate the doors open to the north (i.e. Room 8 door opens into Room 10, and Room 10 door opens into Room 12, Roig's).

Meaning, it would make sense to barricade that side door. That's a door you COULD barricade before locking yourself in the bathroom; it never made sense that she barricaded the bathroom door and then somehow squeezed in there with the kids.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 10:56 AM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
So if we go with the silent hostage theory, there could have been two men/teenagers who went into Rousseau's room and made everyone be quiet. They went early, knowing outside doors were not yet locked. Since Rousseau's kids still had packs on, that would mean the men arrived at just about class start time, around 9:05 a.m. Once outside doors were locked at 9:30--meaning police would have a harder time interfering--they began coordinated shooting, with one of them kicking in Soto's door. That's why Soto's kids heard nothing until their door was kicked in.

Most kids in Soto's room only saw the guy who kicked his way into their room; another shooter was in Rousseau's. He had a head start, since he didn't have to kick in a door. He had already forced the children into the bathroom.

He fled early, running out Rousseau's door and down the hall to the left, then around to the woods side of the school, running out the same side door Varga probably did (or the one further south), and into the woods.

The key now is to get Roig's phone in his or another fleeing shooter's hands; perhaps a third guy was sent into Roig's room almost simultaneously?

If you look at some of these "team" mass shootings of the past, especially younger guys, they seem to get all hopped up on the "coordinated strategy" garbage i.e. they're imagining themselves to be some kind of elite team, and favor some kind of coordinated start time. Also of course, having one guy start removes the element of surprise from everyone else on the team unless they start together.

It just seems like all the effort was directed at those first three rooms, which would make sense if they wanted to kill as many people as possible without being seen first by other teachers, etc. But I really think they got into the school before the doors locked; it could be that the 60-65 year old man with the "flat expression" was the last one in (or, that could still be Thorne--haven't ruled that out yet).

It would make sense to take one of the teacher's phones, knowing the teacher would freak out and tell police, and knowing police would ping it, and knowing police would have to be very slow and thorough about finding a shooter who seemed to be holed up possibly with civilian hostages at 6/10 Riverside. That would slow down the search for fleeing shooters quite a bit.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 01:02 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I'm going to suggest that the "four handguns" originally reported is accurate. Either meaning four men, or a three-man team, one of whom had both a shotgun and a handgun. Guessing the XM15 was likely planted, although it could have been the long gun in question.

It could be that, at a planned start time of approx. 9:34 (to allow for late parents etc to be gone), the shooters stashed in Rousseau's room began shooting/charging Soto's room, as a guy inside or outside the building blasted a hole in the front glass with a shotgun. Not sure why they'd do that; a quick exit route? Doesn't seem smart, but...it does draw staff immediately toward the front of the building.

I think this scenario is possible:

Shooter 1&2: In Rousseau's room with hostages gathered
Shooter 3: Outside the building with shotgun

At 9:34:

Shooter 3: Blasts glass with shotgun; kills H & S w/handgun

Shooter 1 & 2: Begin shooting hostages; Shooter 2 quickly enters Soto's room. Gun probably doesn't jam; rather, he has to reload already because he started shooting in Rousseau's.

Shooter 3 then enters Roig's room from hall, but kids have already been hidden (genuinely, or pre-arranged). Takes Roig's phone to be used as delaying tactic for police search.

The individual found deceased in Soto's room is possibly a patsy, or a sacrificed shooter; Soto's room had no living witnesses for quite awhile after the event began, so Shooters 1 and 2 could have easily followed orders to execute Shooter 3, patsy or not.

Shooter 1 and 2 (the two shadows?) leave via the woods; ditch the phone near 6/10 Riverside (two properties take way more time to search than one - this location is ideal for slowing cops down, as a result) - and walk across Riverside to relative freedom. A few minutes' walk through neighborhood woods, a few steps to the bridge, and they're lost forever. Once inside Rocky Glen they have countless options, to include a boat.

None of this explains the gunshots still being fired from 9:40 to 9:51, however; there could have been four total men, under orders to leave one guy behind and deceased as the patsy, with a sort of "last-man standing" plan. I.e. you have a shootout, and the lucky winner gets the money. In several spots, the gunshots do sound like exchanges; two marksmen shooting at each other would explain the relatively small number of shots.
SnakeAirlines

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01/22/2014 01:11 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
blahblah
"Hold my cat while I bring in my tomato plant. That chemtrail looks like an earthquake chemtrail"

deanoZXT-07/20/2014 07:48 PM
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01/22/2014 02:26 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Snakeboy, you really like to follow shady hoax, don't ya? Why don't you get a life lol!
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 02:37 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
I'm definitely open to other explanations for Roig's phone being halfway between Sandy Hook School and a national park.
Anonymous Coward
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01/22/2014 02:54 PM
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
O/T but interesting, you can also look up Newtown Conservation and Development plans going back to at least 2003, the school had a steady drop in enrollment and you can view the yearly upgrades to the school so I do believe it was in operation until the shooting now unless I missed something.

Chalk Hill is another story: How in the hell did they ever get this school ready in just a mere few weeks and how did they bypass state regulations prohibiting children K-2 in the school?


Chalk Hill School was identified as the school to close given its aging infrastructure, as well as its capacity to house lower elementary school students.

State fire regulations prohibit kindergarten and grade 1 students from being housed above ground level, with grade 2 students not permitted
above the second floor of any structure.


These regulations safeguard that in the event of an emergency evacuation, the youngest and smallest children would not be trampled in stairwells or left in a situation with an egress of considerable distance to travel.

As the cafeteria and library are located on the top level (considered third floor), this school cannot house grades K, 1 or 2. These limitations, coupled with the need for extensive facility led to the decision to designate Chalk Hill Upper Elementary School as the most likely school to close for long-term needs of the district.


Monroe POCD (December 2010) 201 Chapter 11.0: Municipal Facilities, Services, and Schools

PAGE 215-216 of report

[link to www.monroect.org]
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Sandy Hook: What gunman took Kaitlin Roig's cellphone?
Thanks for that, FBK - emergency exemptions, maybe?

I think it's time to figure out who this former employee, Vest, is.

I'm starting to wonder whether those redacting the report--maybe individuals who had their own misgivings about what was going on--left things in purposely, here and there.

I realize some of the oversight is likely due to haste, but leaving Ms. Roig's problematic ex un-redacted is a pretty big error.


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