For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

Start your own thread. This one's an explanation of why I believe the pre-trib Rapture and to refute lies being spread about that view.

You want to teach another view, go ahead and start a thread about it.

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Summary

See also:

[link to www.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to bible.fether.net]
[link to thedevineevidence.com]
[link to lamblion.com]
[link to www.biblestudying.net]
[link to media.alwaysbeready.com]


1. Jesus descends
2. Shout
3. Trumpet
4. Dead in Christ raised
5. Living in Christ transformed in an instant (1 Cor. 15:52)
6. All in Christ snatched away up into the clouds to meet Jesus
7. This is a message of comfort, not dread

Notice also that Paul makes no mention of a time of suffering to purge, test, or punish the church before this event he is now describing. He is repeating what he had told them before, and the first thing is Jesus descending from heaven to the sky. No earthquakes, no signs, no nothing, but only a message of comfort and hope.

So there it is, in the simplest terms. It is "that blessed hope" for which "there is a crown of righteousness" for all who long for Jesus to come. I implore you all to be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus, so that you can, as Jesus said, "escape all these things" to come.


Mapping Daniel to Revelation


First is the overview of the 70 weeks:

1. They concern the people of Israel and Jerusalem, not the church.
2. Purpose: to finish (complete) transgression.
3. Purpose: to put an end to sin.
4. Purpose: to atone for wickedness.
5. Purpose: to bring in everlasting righteousness.
6. Purpose: to seal up (complete) vision and prophecy.
7. Purpose: to anoint the Most Holy Place in the Temple.

The 70 Weeks would begin when the decree was given (turned out to be Nebuchadnezzar) to rebuild Jerusalem, and it would stop short of the final week when the Messiah would be killed. There would be a "prince to come", known now to have been Titus, whose "people" destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the same event Jesus referred to about not one stone being left upon another, as it was literally fulfilled when the Romans wanted the melted gold that had run between the blocks. After this event there would be wars and desolations. Then after that span of wars would come "he" who does all of the following:

1. Confirm a 7-year covenant or treaty "with many".
2. Violate the treaty at the midpoint by ending sacrifice and offering in the temple.
3. Set up an idol in the temple.

Clearly Jesus did not set up any idols, nor make and break any 7-year treaties. The same "he" does all of this. Now we will see where this treaty and violation matches up with Revelation:



This point (idol in the temple, Beast demands to be worshiped as God) in Rev. is the 7th trumpet, so the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. Therefore, all the trumpets are in the first 3.5 years. It is unknown whether the Seals are before or after the beginning of that time, as they may comprise a gap between the Rapture and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

The Rapture precedes the Seals because it must be something Satan cannot predict, as evidenced by his continually trying to have an oligarchy in place.


New Testament


Paul is writing to calm the people who had received a forged letter claiming to be from Paul, wherein they were told they had missed The Departure and were now entering the Tribulation. Paul is writing to quash the false teaching and spell out the true teaching he had brought them before. Had he taught them they'd go through the Tribulation, they would not be comforted by his words, nor would they be afraid they had missed the Tribulation (!!).

The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as The Departure. This has to be very clear. And Paul states the order of events:

1. The Departure
2. The revealing of the man of lawlessness
3. The Day of the Lord

Paul also gives important details about The Great Lie:

1. It comes from God.
2. It is given to "them", who "have not believed the truth but delighted in wickedness".

God will not delude his own people or accuse them of hating truth and loving wickedness. Neither will true Christians accept any other seal than that of the Holy Spirit, "the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (2 Cor. 1:22).

Final Thoughts

The continual slander against the pre-trib view is based upon failure to understand it or blind acceptance of lies from its enemies. We do NOT smugly watch the world decay, nor do we ignore the terrible persecution of Christians now or in history, nor do we wish for the suffering of the lost. Neither are we unprepared for suffering, as this was promised by Jesus to all his followers.

The truth is that we are highly motivated to spread the Gospel so others too can "escape all these things" as Jesus said. What "things"? Not the typical wrath of Satan and man, but the wrath of God to come.

Who will really be unprepared? Is it not the ones who disbelieve in the pre-trib Rapture? The Beast/AC cannot duplicate all the requirements of Jesus coming for his Bride:

-- shout and trumpet
-- Jesus descending from heaven
-- the dead in Christ arise
-- the living in Christ are instantly made immortal
-- the whole Bride of Christ is taken into heaven (note that we do NOT have to board a ship)

In contrast, the Beast/AC will arise out of the earth. As for the Mark, Christians are ALREADY SEALED and would never be fooled into taking another one.

But opponents of pre-trib will be caught off-guard by the Rapture, and will be among those caught "beating their fellow servants" when Jesus arrives; just look at the comments in this thread for examples of such beatings. They will be caught looking for the Beast/AC rather than Jesus.

This is why I created this thread: to dispel slander and rumors, and to convey "that blessed hope" to those without hope, so they too can be given "the crown of righteousness for all who have longed for HIS (Jesus') appearing". (APPEARING, not "second coming")


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[link to www.fether.net]

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I will abbreviate “pre-tribulational Rapture” as PTR. These are not in any particular order of importance.

Claim: The PTR is a recent invention.

Rebuttal: The most common citation of this being a new teaching is a medieval teenager named Margaret MacDonald, who claimed to have had a prophetic vision in 1824. But she did not have a vision of any Rapture at all, let alone a PTR. Further, no PTR teacher ever cites her or her alleged vision for any reason. Critics who would then allege a conspiracy to hide such a source would be arguing from silence, not to mention opening themselves up to similar charges. There are also much earlier references to PTR, such as the post-apostolic writing known as The Shepherd of Hermas (ca. a.d. 140).

Claim: The PTR was a heresy started by Darby and made popular by Scofield.

Rebuttal: Darby stated that he saw the PTR in scripture, three years before MacDonald’s (non-rapture) vision. Scofield was noted for his teaching of Dispensationalism, as well as his Reference Bible. The PTR is a logical conclusion to draw from a dispensational approach to scripture, but this approach is hardly heresy. The allegorical approach is at least as open to the same charge, as is so-called Covenant Theology wherein no distinction is made between the church and Israel.

Claim: The PTR is escapist and cowardly.

Rebuttal: In Luke 21:36 Jesus said to “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen“; in Rev. 3:10 Jesus said, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”. Is Jesus teaching that escape is cowardly? How about Isaiah 26:20? “Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.”

Claim: The PTR teaches that Christians will not suffer, so it sets them up for falling away from the faith.

Rebuttal: This is burning a straw man; PTR teaches no such thing. Jesus promised persecution to his followers (Mark 10:30), and Paul in 2 Tim. 3:12 said, “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Even today, many Christians are suffering terribly and dying for the Name of Jesus. So anyone who teaches that Christians will not suffer is clearly in error, regardless of their views on prophecy. The fact is that PTR only concerns the wrath of God and the time Daniel was told was for punishing the unbelieving world and bringing Israel back to God.

Those who oppose PTR are unprepared for the sudden appearing of Jesus; they look for the Antichrist instead of the Christ. They will also not receive “the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day— and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” (2 Tim. 4:8). If PTR is wrong, it will be time for those who boasted of their preparation and immunity from being fooled to prove themselves. In contrast, PTR believers would never be fooled, since the Antichrist will not do any of the following:

-- sound the trumpet of God
-- give the shout of the archangel
-- raise from the dead all Christians who have died
-- give the dead new, immortal bodies
-- instantly transform the bodies of the living Christians to immortal
-- take all of us (not invite us to board a spaceship) to meet him in the air

We also know that we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit, so we will not accept any other seals. The “mark of the Beast” is a pledge of loyalty and has to be taken knowingly and voluntarily, and Jesus would never say “take this mark or starve to death”.

Claim: The PTR ignores what Jesus taught in Mat. 24.

Rebuttal: Anti-PTR ignores practically every other passage about end-times prophecy, putting Mat. 24 in a vacuum. And many people are confused by the signs and disasters in Revelation, thinking that all instances of earthquakes for example are one and the same event. But consider this: Jesus told of extreme cosmic events after the Great Oppression which will make it clear that it is indeed the end (Mat. 24:29-31, ref. Isaiah 13:10; 34:4):

-- sun and moon go dark
-- stars fall from sky
-- powers of heavens (skies and/or space) shaken
-- extreme turbulence on earth, with oceans roaring and splashing
-- the appearance of the sign of the Human in the sky
-- he descends in the clouds in great power and majesty
-- trumpet blast to send out Messengers to collect “the chosen” from all over “the heavens”

On the surface, the first four signs appear to match up with the 6th Seal of Revelation (Rev. 6:12–14), which is clearly not the end of the Great Oppression:

-- the moon is red instead of black
-- the stars fall to earth
-- the sky itself “rolls up like a scroll”
-- every mountain is shifted from its place.

There is at least one Old Testament reference to such things as well (Joel 2:31), and it too places them “before that great and terrible day of the Master”:



So we see that very similar signs both precede and follow the 70th week of the prophecy of Daniel.

Claim: The PTR is “the strong delusion” prophesied by Paul.

Rebuttal: The delusion Paul mentions is sent from God to “them” (2 Thess. 2:10-13), not from Satan to Christians. So there is no basis in scripture for this ridiculous charge, and it can be made just as easily against opposition to PTR. Since PTR comes mostly from Paul in the first place, one would be hard-pressed to show how he would call his own teaching delusional.

Claim: Paul taught that the Rapture isn’t until after “the man of sin” is revealed.

Rebuttal: The passage being referenced is 2 Thes. 2:1–12, specifically vs 3: “Don’t let anyone trick you in any way, for that day will not come until the Departure happens and then the Lawless One, the destroyer, is revealed.” But “that day” refers to “the day of the Lord” in the previous verse, which is not the Departure/Rapture. Moreover, the people Paul was writing to were afraid that they had missed the Departure and would now go through the Tribulation. Who fears an allegory, or is afraid they missed the Tribulation? Conversely, who should be comforted (1 Thes. 4:13-18) by a teaching that has them going through the Tribulation?



Claim: The PTR invents a “last trumpet” before the last one mentioned in Revelation.

Rebuttal: The 7th trump is NOT the last trump. The 7th is of an angel and is a judgment (Rev. 11:15), while the last is of God and is a blessing (1 Thess. 4:16). There was a “last” trumpet for Israel before Christ (Numbers 10:5-6), which Paul’s readers would have understood as a call to leave or break camp, as opposed to those of Revelation which had not yet been given.

Claim: The wrath of God does not begin until the Bowl judgments.

Rebuttal: It is undeniable that Jesus, the Lamb, is also God. So any wrath coming from Jesus is, by definition, the wrath of God. This is acknowledged in Rev. no later than Rev. 6:16, but note that it is the people of earth making this statement, not God or John or any heavenly Messenger. Also note that all of the Seals are opened by the Lamb, even though the results on earth are “natural” for the first four. That is, the Lamb instigates the Seal judgments, so they are all the wrath of God.

Claim: The Rapture is at the 6th Seal judgment.

Rebuttal: This claim is based upon presuming the identity of the “multitude in white robes… from every nation” in Rev. 7:9-17. But the Greek grammar clearly indicates their origin and scope: they come out of the Great Tribulation. There is no indication that this was a past, singular event (lit. “coming”), and their origin is not just “tribulation” but “THE Great Tribulation”. This same expression is used by Jesus to describe “a time of trouble never seen before and never to be seen again” (Mat. 24:21), and this is immediately after Jesus quotes Daniel’s statement about “the abomination of desolation”. So the multitude comes from the time of the Bowl judgments, even though John sees them at the sixth seal.

Claim: There is nothing connecting Daniel to Revelation.

Rebuttal: Daniel 9:27 says,



We find that same event in Rev. 13:1-8, indicating the midpoint of that ‘week’:



So both passages describe a world leader who confirms a seven-year covenant and then breaks it by declaring himself God and setting up an abomination in the temple. It is thus logical to conclude that both Daniel and Revelation, which no one denies extend to the end of human history, describe the same period, which Daniel stipulates to be seven years.

Claim: The PTR contradicts where Rev. says the saints will be overcome by the Beast.

Rebuttal: That passage was quoted above, but the “holy people” are not the church. The terms holy people, saints, elect, etc. were also used of the righteous in the Old Testament as well, so they are not exclusive terms for the church. This must be considered in context, and when the context is the point being debated, then the identity of these people depends completely on one’s view of dispensations. But if dispensationalism is the right view, then these are not church-age believers.

Your default wall of text answers nothing.


Just tell the readers the truth........there is no 7 year Tribulation Period found in Scripture.


Therefore.... there can be no Pre-Trib rapture............as there is no Tribulation Period.



So try proving that there is a Pre-70th week rapture.

What you call a "default wall of text" is a SUMMARY for all those people who can't be bothered to read the thread. It is an attempt on my part to keep the thread ON TOPIC and thwart the efforts of TROLLS to make it THEIR TOPIC instead.

You should try reading it sometime. It's not like you can't find it.

Just tell me the truth: you have an unhealthy drive to smash and silence anyone who happens to DISAGREE WITH YOU about the timing of the Rapture. You never go after any other prophecy view but this one.

You are, in my opinion, WRONG, and should at least admit that you could be wrong.

So try treating me like a human being who is no more or less fallible than you are, and read the summary if you want to know the truth.


Seriously... where does such control-freak behavior as yours come from??

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/05/2013 07:03 PM

Calling a brother in Christ a "troll"......or a "control freak"........is a bit worldly......wouldn't you say OP?


Getting angry or being offended by a challenge can be a pride issue.........and we are all guilty of this from time to time.


I am a wretched sinner........like anyone else.......no better or worse......just wretched......and saved only by God's grace.


If I go into a church that has some error in their doctrines.......I am in fact commanded to speak up and correct them........not keep quiet.....or compromise.


So don't get so rattled........as Christians are commanded to:


"convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching"..........if they feel that there is error......rather than just disappearing......or starting another thread. (2 Tim 4: 1-5)


I am just following God's commands......and it is He that I serve.


The truth will be made clear in due time.


In the meantime.....we should not slander or step on fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.


If you hate me.......just forgive me in your heart......and continue on with your activity.


"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do." (Col. 3: 12-13)

Starting off today's rants of yours by referring to SATAN is a bit diabolical, wouldn't you say?

To state the obvious: I am merely presenting my reasons for believing that there will be a rapture of the church before the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy, and to dispel lies being spread about that view.

Is that clear now?

And if you can call me angry, I can call you obsessed with the need to force me to believe as you do. Otherwise you're using a double standard.



For you to leap from "we disagree" to "you are in ERROR!" is extremely arrogant. You have no authority over me; I have no following or influence. So your feigned concern for some inferred danger is really just your need to control me and force-feed your fallible opinions upon me. That's the honest truth.


"So don't get so rattled".

And of all the "error" being spewed at this site, don't you think one insignificant person's eschatology is pretty low on the list? It should be obvious that no one has been persuaded by my material.

What, I must ask, are you so afraid of, since I persuade no one and influence no one?

Methinks thou protesteth too loudly!

But, do go on bumping my thread to the front page where more people will see it.

If you must.


Oh, and remember... in a week I'll be banned again for not paying. You can have my thread all to yourself then. You should invite your friends and plan a grave-dancing party.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/05/2013 07:54 PM

"Please understand that there is no need to tell me I'm stupid, lost, deluded, rebellious, fearful, or a false teacher. I've heard all that a thousand times already"



There are very good REASONS that you've heard it a thousand times before. Because it is TRUE.

You are a deceiver, and of your father, the devil.

You're not going ANYWHERE.

No "beam me outta here Scotty", for you, or anybody else.

But the saddest part of all, is that, as a false teacher, you will not even be raptured at the last trump. You will be laid waste, and sleep along with the wicked, until you are raised to be judged, at the end of the thousand years.

Can't ya just feel the love coming from the critics?

Makes y'all wanna be Christians, don't it.

They can call me Satan just for my prophecy opinions, but they are PREPARED and will PROVE THEIR WORTH!!

And I've got a bridge to sell you.

What I can feel is the sarcasm oozing from your opening sentence.

The ones in the 7 Churches that are said to be in need of overcoming certain things, are they part of the gathered Church or do they end up on the rubble pile?

Re:22:11:
He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still:
and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still:
and he that is righteous,
let him be righteous still:
and he that is holy,
let him be holy still.

Being called Satan by a false Christian, what is the world coming to? Do you keep a collection of your 'scars for Christ'?

Zec:13:6:
And one shall say unto him,
What are these wounds in thine hands?
Then he shall answer,
Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

How do you handle it when you should be cringing? The verse below has an almost casual mention of the Nations that in reality sees 2/3 of them being dead on the spot and the ones lifted off the ground are dropped onto a rubble pile from a great height. The mush that is left es eaten by birds and animals brought there by God for that specific purpose. Several billion dead in a few hours, the sea as a dead man means it is a solid piece that you can/do walk on for the next 1,000 years. The difference being 1/3 of life in the ocean dies before Satan is even around for his allotted time, then it takes him 1110 days to kill just over 2 Billion people, that is the Bible's definition of the last tribulation caused by sinners. Cleaning out the sinners is messy work, that is partly why it is done so quickly, 3 hours out of one afternoon from start to finish.
It still gets the added 'great' because it is the greater of the two.

If that bridge follows the doctrine path it is a whopper also, not that it is all fabrication only that you need to read several websites and then you will have no questions, yet not one point can be backed up in that it includes a lot of other prophecy also.

I forgot to post this verse about gentiles being killed but in the off handed way in that it is far from being very important when a lot of other verses say it is going to be pretty bad.

Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.

Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.


Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Da:2:34:
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay,
and brake them to pieces.
Da:2:35:
Then was the iron,
the clay,
the brass,
the silver,
and the gold,
broken to pieces together,
and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away,
that no place was found for them:
and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain,
and filled the whole earth.

The prophecy is pretty specific, does it fit with the previous verses in the area defined is the same in all and the area defined in association with kingdoms and the 7th trump in Re:11. Ther is a lot of OT prophecy that belong to that specific event, Daniel is as good a place to start as any.

Da:2:36:
This is the dream;
and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Da:2:44:
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people,
but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,
and it shall stand for ever.
Da:2:45:
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,
and that it brake in pieces the iron,
the brass,
the clay,
the silver,
and the gold;
the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter:
and the dream is certain,
and the interpretation thereof sure.

Re:18:17-24:
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.
And every shipmaster,
and all the company in ships,
and sailors,
and as many as trade by sea,
stood afar off,
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning,
saying,
What city is like unto this great city!
And they cast dust on their heads,
and cried,
weeping and wailing,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city,
wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!
for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rejoice over her,
thou heaven,
and ye holy apostles and prophets;
for God hath avenged you on her.
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone,
and cast it into the sea,
saying,
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down,
and shall be found no more at all.
And the voice of harpers,
and musicians,
and of pipers,
and trumpeters,
shall be heard no more at all in thee;
and no craftsman,
of whatsoever craft he be,
shall be found any more in thee;
and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee;
and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
And in her was found the blood of prophets,
and of saints,
and of all that were slain upon the earth.

That He gives His justification is going to be small comfort to the ones on the dead end of the grave on that day, however (and this point is largely left out, they have altered their perspective by the time they stand before God, that is the way God does things, when you know what checkmate looks like it is pretty easy to play the game in reverse and win every single time.

What will make 'good reading' is the witness reports from the 1/3 that live through and survive the time the trumps take, (the first one is the trip from where you are on the planet when the 'rapture has just taken 2/3 of all the people around you and you and any around you 'get the urge to walk to Jerusalem' and that task is completed in a few months. That is the first of 1,000 such trips so I assume when the yearly feast comes to an end you are free to travel in any direction and everyplace you go a bit of rain follows you or something like that.
When Satan is released with the other fallen angels the ones alive for the 1,000 years are in Israel for that yearly feast and like the beginning they continue to be witnesses to what the Kingdom of God is like (so far).

Being a pre-tribber means you see only the very last part so you don't escape the fire anyway. Trib for a believer is just as hard as being a believer on any given day, unless you see something in this reference that escapes me.

1Pe:4:12-18:
Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice,
inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that,
when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ,
happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you:
on their part he is evil spoken of,
but on your part he is glorified.
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Just another day would also be false advertising, there are a lot of 'sinners' that Satan could use as filling his quota and 'believers would be tricked into thinking it is the real deal. If you are going to kill all the believers to make believers out of non-believers then you just do it, you don't need any deception.

Last Edited by MHz on 11/05/2013 10:36 PM

What I can see is that you're okay with people calling me Satan.


Really, people... who am I, that you are so bent on smashing me down? And all over my view on the timing of the Rapture!

If my faith were not strong, the lot of you would have driven it from me long ago. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

Like I said; unless by some miracle I can buy ban immunity before a week is up (and now I don't think I want it anyway, because of you), you can all dance on my grave and trash my thread without my interference. I hope you're happy.

What I see is somebody that get wounded by a reply by a complete stranger, one that might just be out trying to stir the pot. This doctrine you are so attached to (I like the Bible and go with the flow, I f read something a few years later and it means something different I chalk that up to being more informed if I have been covering Bible topics at all) Becoming a pre-tribber is never going to happen and I can explain why using verses that should be less threatening that chit-chats like this, some even have the term Satan in it. I'm not sure you're ready for that at this point, that doesn't mean there aren't some topics that can be covered that are relevant to the doctrine in a supporting role, that is always 'plan b'. Satan 'owns' the lives of all the Church members that are in need of 'overcoming', what is that text matters, what we think doesn't as we aren't the judge, we are the judged.

How does that go again?

I read a lot of Scripture in a day, and then try and talk about it. What part of that is going to get me into the fiery lake? (then an answer is inserted in your next post)

That smashing didn't take very long, you must have known you 'house of verses' was a bit shaky in a few places. I could lead you back to the post where you first fumbled which is admitting your doctrine doesn't have the right answer for some questions.

If that is what made you bridge-material then you only had a block to go. Think He will rapture at the last moment, yep, all the way to the far side of the Great White Throne.

You may not even want to be in the 1,000 years, it starts out messy and it is a lot worse at the end. The middle part is the attraction for believers.

For being the good Christian that you are you sure need a lot of ban protection, ...... just sayin .....

Last Edited by MHz on 11/05/2013 10:58 PM

Hint 4 OP, when you start a thread make 3 quick posts so you can go edit and extend your remarks .. too bad your missing out on the restored gospel!

"If you are prepared, you shall not fear."

Just shaking my head this morning at all the condescending and judging that continued into the night.

I've said it several times: who am I, and who am I leading astray, that so many people feel compelled to come here and ram their opinions down my throat as if they think they're infallible and I'm some minion of the devil?

As I said: I made this thread for two reasons:

1-- To explain the pre-trib view from the scriptures

2-- To refute lies being spread about that view

Everything else--- all the arguing, attacking, hate, judging--- has been from others trying to force me to shut up or convert to their views. But no matter how many times I say this, they come back with judging my motives, my spirit, and my confidence in my own view. There is no reasoning with such people.

All I can ask of you critics is to follow the Golden Rule, or become followers of Jesus first if you're not. I am not the judge of that, though many of you have made yourselves judges of my salvation.

And in spite of my effort in this comment to be Christlike and irenic, you will take it completely backwards and use it as yet another reason to flame. That is something you and God will have to talk about.

If you truly just don't like my view, stop posting in it and bumping the thread to the front page. It's that simple. If you continue posting, it can only mean that you intend to keep attacking me forever, whether I'm here or not, because you hate me and anyone else who STILL, because of your hatred, stands on the scriptural basis for the pre-trib Rapture, my "blessed hope". It is Jesus I watch for, as He commanded, and I will continue steadfastly in that command regardless of who and how many try to stop me.

Quit giving us reasons to stay up late. You must be the reason I'm up early also.


Who else talks like that??


1. when is that going to happen, you did the summation, some questions came back from the target audience and they are waiting for the reply that the pre-trib- view provides. If they had it I'm sure they wouldn't be asking for it.
2. see point 1.


Now you want to happily abandon our long held views and accept the pre-trib as the only viable doctrine. That we show reluctance and don't do it happily has you upset? Did I get that right??? Cause it is about as close to insanity as a person wants to get.


What is the pre-trib view of people who 'resist' to the point they don't join you klan? Death in the fiery lake?


Where do you think the inspiration comes from, any Scripture used against your view is flame coming from God Almighty.


and who do you imagine is trying to do that? The ones who survive the same trib as the one you intend on missing are going to be the ones telling the war-stories and you will be the 'in awe' audience. I would have taken you for somebody who would rather be talking than listening.

We are trying to give you some help, as a believer how could these words not apply to you? If we cause you pain for 5 momths are we the beast?

Re:15:2:
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass,
having the harps of God.
Re:15:3:
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb,
saying,
Great and marvellous are thy works,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are thy ways,
thou King of saints.
Re:15:4:
Who shall not fear thee,
O Lord,
and glorify thy name?
for thou only art holy:
for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
for thy judgments are made manifest.

Re:9:4:
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,
neither any green thing,
neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Re:9:5:
And to them it was given that they should not kill them,
but that they should be tormented five months:
and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion,
when he striketh a man.

Last Edited by MHz on 11/06/2013 09:37 AM

My critics. How can you have missed it, since you're one of them? Which side has called the other satanic, heretical, fearful, and some things I won't repeat? You are in denial, only focusing on your target and not your own compatriots, whose attitudes and words are every bit at least as faulty as mine.



The OP, the comments over all these pages, and the summary all have been answers. Whether the answers are accepted or even read is up to the readers. I have given my reasons, and unless you admit to being more interested in an inquisition than simply hearing why I believe as I do, you should allow me to hold opinions without trying to force your own upon me.

They, and you, keep asking for things I have already given them. What you do with them is your business, and I have no compulsion to make you accept them. But you and your friends are obsessed with ramming your views down my throat, or you would not keep coming back.




What a ridiculous leap! I am asking or demanding NOTHING from you. It is YOU who demand that I accept YOUR views and YOU who are quite upset, even enraged, that I refuse. Talk about insanity!

The rest of your diatribe is beyond irrational, and there is no further point in trying to reason with you. Believe whatever you want; hate me if it makes you feel superior and righteous. My God is Jesus, not you or your opinions.

God will judge between us.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/06/2013 10:03 AM

From the OP to now, my purpose has been to simply state the scriptural basis for the pre-trib Rapture view, and to refute lies being spread about it. That's all. I cannot state this any more clearly, and I have exhausted all the patience I can muster for trying, futilely, to reason with critics of this view of eschatology.

Being a follower of Jesus means standing on certain truths: that there is only one God, that Jesus is God come down in human form, that he died for our sins, that he rose again as predicted, and that he will return as he promised. It is that hope, that faith in his promise, that I will never abandon, even if those who consider themselves fellow believers seek to destroy this view and all who stand upon it.

One's view of eschatology is NOT part of the Gospel a person must believe in order to be saved, in spite of the behavior of many to the contrary. There is not one shred of evidence in this entire thread to support the claim that I somehow have demanded that everyone else agree with me, or that I have even come close to calling them the vile names they have called me. If merely defending myself or my opinions is seen as attacks upon those whose delicate ears cannot stand to hear them, then there is nothing more to be said.

So here, have my thread, it's all yours. Dance on my grave; invite your friends; show the world what "real Christians" are like. But remember this: as long as the thread is not deleted, there is nothing you can do to stop people from seeing what I wrote, especially if you keep bumping it.

My conscience is clear before God that I spoke what I sincerely believe the scriptures teach after much study and prayer, and that I have not treated my critics as they have treated me.

KEEP LOOKING UP

Don't be discouraged, keep, you have touched more people than you can possibly know. Those who have made war with you have done so in a vicious manner and are modern day Pharisees. Pay them no mind. You stated your view and defense of pre trib very well indeed. Thank you

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can combine coming as a thief in the night (secretly) with every eye shall see him into one event. It just doesn't make any sence

God bless Keep
Your friend Ed

Thank you, Ed.

I think it's pretty clear now that trying to talk to them is futile. If anything, maybe I'll just post the summary every now and then. Still, the thread will remain even if my ban immunity runs out next week. Given all the red I get from members who never identify themselves, it would take a miracle to have enough green to buy immunity for another month. I'm sure the critics will do everything in their power to oppose that and be rid of me.

Agree; just as the only way to reconcile OT prophecies about the Messiah was two comings, so also the NT prophecies can only be reconciled by two separate events. Many have made charts showing how impossible it is for Jesus to fulfill all of them at the time he sets foot on the earth at the end of the Tribulation.

Here's a video of song snippets I found while looking for a capella music, and it happens to also be all uplifting songs:

Well when many see the true Christ and they find that they are already in bed with the antichrist having been decieved that he was the bridegroom, then Christs coming will be as a thief in the night to them that will have been decieved.

Makes perfect sense as that is just how it is written and will happen.

From the summary:

Also, Jesus will NOT:
-- arrive in a space ship
-- arrive on a white horse
-- set foot on the earth
-- demand a mark in order to buy or sell
-- behead people who refuse the mark

Satan and his angelic followers can certainly feign a resurrection of the dead. They being angels are already in spiritual bodies. When they are thrown out they can make it appears as of old aunt Sally who sat in a church pew for 70 years has risen from the grave. God bless the real Sally's soul.

And if satan can make lightening strike down from heaven in the soght of men then he can certainly make some loud shouts and trumpeting.

Changing living flesh into spiritual bodies is something he can't do. But again they come in spiritual or angelic bodies, so they can certainly feign others having been changed "in Christ", these others actually being some of satans angelic crew.

The mark is not forced. Satan comes posing as Christ. It taken by having let ones self been decieved into think satan in one or all of his roles is God.

The horses and the ships, one doesn't even have to go that far as to what will happen in the hour of temptation. As the moment anyone thinks for a split second satan is God or Christ then they will wear his mark on thier forehead. Tell someone else that Christ has returned when its really satan and now your hand is marked too.

It is the first beast that rises out of the sea of people's, having 10 crowns or regions if you will. In large part it is already here and will take a political head wound that satan will fix.

So OP it seems you have a little wisdom that might enable you to repent before the real change happens for having thought satan was Christ if even for a moment. Dunno, God is going to send strong delusion too. How well one thinks that they can stand against dellusion sent by God after having blown kisses to satan I am not sure. Hopefully many will be able to cast off the mark before they are changed themselves. There are only so many reserved that will not bow a knee to Baal.

Having to repent of being decieved by satan before the real change is better than going through change wholly decieved. Many rapture theory followers won't make it to repentance though as they just aren't taught to seek the truth in depth.

It is Gods wisdom in His Word that seals the mind of the believer against the fiery darts of satan during his hour of temptation. If John 3:16 was all that was needed to become sealed then God would have wasted His time having the entire book written.. And we should all be able to discern that this type of thinking is far from the truth as it is about equivalent to say God doesn't know what He is doing.

When the real Jesus comes, he will raise the dead in Christ and then instantly transform the living in Christ into immortals. Satan CANNOT do this. And I will surely know it the instant my body becomes immortal. There is no faking this. And none of us in Christ will have any choice in the matter; if we are his, we will be taken. There will be nothing for me or anyone else to decide or choose at that moment.

You should repent for falsely accusing me. And that is all I will say to you.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 11/06/2013 01:56 PM

I am discussing Gods Word with you. Not casting judgment here.. Chew on a chill pill would ya?

Anyways you in large missed the point as many are waiting for the dead to rise up out of the grave first. The point being this can be feigned by satan. Whether he will or not I don't know. But if he should there is some moment in time there that he will have made for himself to make people who follow the rapture theory to think he has come to fulfill what is taught in men's churches.

In that time, how ever brief it might be one could be spiritually marked as dead. That is the culmination of the point.

A another question I have though as I have not seen it addressed in the thread. Forgive me if it has, but who is it that falls away from belief before the son of perdition is revealed if all those that believe have been removed from the earth by Christ?

When you tell me I need to repent, you're telling me you have judged me to be in sin.



I have gone over this many times.

The word "apostasia" means "departure" and was rendered that way in English translations before the KJV. Context determines the meaning, and nothing there is about falling from the faith. Paul uses the definite article with it as well, so it is "the departure".

Falling from the faith was already in gear in Paul's day, and has been obvious throughout the church age as a continual process. To be "THE Departure" would require something so obvious that it stands apart from the rest of church history, and I have seen nothing as colossal a departure as the formation of the Roman Catholic Church by Augustine. Your viewpoint hinges on "apostasia" having to mean "falling away from the faith".

So given the context being about the end times rather than false teachings, and given that the church is largely already "fallen away", the clearest meaning I can see in that passage is that this term "the departure" refers to the Rapture, the most awesome departure of all.

It seems that you are inferring that anyone who believes the Rapture (Departure) is pre-trib is already apostate or will be the moment the AC arises. After all, you did say I needed to repent.

Please read my Summary; it will answer any other questions you might have, as well as clear up any lies about the pre-trib view you may have believed.

Also consider the fact that my patience with critics has reached its end, as I have been relentlessly attacked just for voicing my opinion on the timing of the Rapture. I am not able any more to keep repeating all the discussion that has gone on before.

Still, the thread will remain even if my ban immunity runs out next week. Given all the red I get from members who never identify themselves, it would take a miracle to have enough green to buy immunity for another month. I'm sure the critics will do everything in their power to oppose that and be rid of me.

Keep, I don't understand this what is ban immunity etc. etc. ? Can you explain
Thanks and keep looking up
Ed

Members can "buy" various things if they have built up enough "green karma". It takes 25 to buy ban immunity for one month, meaning my IPN will not be swept away with others if they ban a whole range of them. And it isn't determined by the quantity of green karma I have now, but by how much has not been used before or been offset by red karma.

And as always, my good friend, thank you, and I will certainly keep looking up.