Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??

What about the Murdering Of non Christians by Christians through out the short history of Christianity thats still going on today? Was not Jesus The Prince of Peace, Or is Jesus a God of war? Good question for the so called reborn president of the U.S. huh? So quote me some more scriptures.Why was there a 'burning time' or the Salem witch trials or the Spanish Inquistion? It's not just the Christians either who kill others in the Name of their God or Gods.

Anonymous CowardUser ID: 5392
12/17/2005 11:45 PM
Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??Salvation is strictly a Christian concept and not intrinsic to Man's relationship with the Cosmos._______________________________________”Actually Christian salvation is intrinsic to the Cosmos as the freedom from corruption and death is established first in God's chosen people and then released to all creation...”

-This is a True Statement.

Anonymous CowardUser ID: 5392
12/18/2005 10:50 AM
Re: Can a born again Christian lose their salvation??Genesis 322 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. HE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO REACH OUT HIS HAND AND TAKE ALSO FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER."23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

-This is the sword that Merlin Raised that became the Legend of King Arthur.

-And is Also True.


There are Many good Souls that have responded in this thread, The Fact That there are Three types of People in this world is as follows:

1st, there are those whom are God’s

2nd, there are those who are of the Fallen Ones, Darkness, Evil Ones, whatever one chooses to Call Them.

3rd, there are those who are Lost, And as Kay has stated above Heaven has Those Whom are Dispatched to Recover those Lost Souls. And as stated before GOD Does take care of those whom are HIS.

And to b jim The Church Does/Did That, Not True Christians.

And it would appear you are Working for Darkness for even in your Handle you Imply you are.

James.

Black blends in with the evening hours. Do you curse the night or fear it?

Black Jim
User ID: 47065
12/18/2005 5:24 PM


Christians who murder and fight in wars are not following Jesus command to put down the sword. In reality, they aren't really Christians.



"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

Darkness does not denote evil.

1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What Does the bible mean to me- but a religion that originated in the middle east and words that have changed with religous leaders,rulers,times,and nations. I am not a Christian,Jew,or Moslem,if you go back far enough you will see they all innerconnect.

If Jesus was so anti-war, then why didn't he rebuke the centurion who asked him to heal his daughter?

Jesus didn't say to him, 'go and sin no more', like He did to Mary Magdelene.

No, Jesus' attitude was more, give obedience to Caesar when demanded and give obedience to God when demanded.

Islam and Christianity do not interconnect.

Islam is a heresy of Christianity, it denies all the basic, important ideas of Christianity, such as Jesus' death on the cross, dying for our sins, the divinity of Jesus, the fact that He is God's only begotten Son.

Quite the most important, saving faiths of Christianity are denied.

The Faith of the Centurion
5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
7Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.


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As you can see, Jesus does nothing but commend this soldier.

If Jesus was so anti-war, then why didn't he rebuke the centurion who asked him to heal his daughter?



He wasn't a follower of Jesus at that point. History shows that when one became a Christian that person left the military and political office. And if they were in the military and could not leave at that moment then they refused to fight.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 A.D.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century A.D.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.

“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.

54268:

In response to why He didn't rebuke the centurion you say

>>he wasn't a follower of Jesus at that point<<

I think he didn't rebuke him because he was astonished at finding so great a faith.

It is my opinion that faith opens the door, not whether or not we fight in wars.

Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)

2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)

Luke 6:27, 28: “I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


Therefore, Christians are not to pick up weapons and fight. Imagine a Christian in one nation picking up a weapon and killing a Christian of another nation because their governments(run by Satan) were in a feud. Is that love? No!

I think he didn't rebuke him because he was astonished at finding so great a faith.



That is true also. And had this centurian decided later to become a Christian he would have left military service.

>>Therefore, Christians are not to pick up weapons and fight<<

I won't agree or disagree with that statement. I would just like to be clear.

Is it: a Christian shouldn't go to war

OR

A person in a war can't be a Christian?

Thanks

Is it: a Christian shouldn't go to war

OR

A person in a war can't be a Christian?



Being a Christian is not condusive to physical warfare. If Jesus wouldn't do it then neither should his followers especially when we are admonished to love our enemies. Here are some scriptures to read.


John 17:16: “They are no part of the world, just as I [Jesus] am no part of the world.”

John 6:15: “Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” Later, he told the Roman governor: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—John 18:36.

Jas. 4:4: “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)

Last scripture should be James 4 : 4

Because of the misconception of salvation, many are confused.

First of all there is salvation past, salvation present, and salvation future.

Salvation past, is mankind's salvation from the penalty of the sin of Adam. "For by grace we have been saved,(Past tense)through faith (Christ), and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph.2:8).

"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 6:23)

So we have all been saved from the penalty of the sins of Adam, by receiving eternal life from Jesus Christ who is eternal life, and in whom we all live and move and have our being.(Jn.17:3).

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation (death),even so (in like manner)through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men resulting in justification of life" (Rom.5:18).Eternal life is both the gift of life which we all have, and living eternally in the presence of God.

2. Salvation present: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. Who were born (past tense), not of blood, (not of human birth), nor of the will of the flesh,(not from fleshly desires), nor of the will of man (from one's own determination) but of God" Jn.1:12-13)

When did that birth take place? We were all conceived or begotten by Jesus Christ the last Adam at His resurrection. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1Pet.1:3).

Therefore, salvation present is "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom.10:13). This is having one's name written in the book of life, at which time the individual is transfered from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ; and received the authority or right to become children of God.

Salvation future; Is the immortality of the human body,or Everlasting life. "We who have the first fruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemptin of our body," (Rom.8:23).

So then salvation past is a gift, it is life eternal; it is up to you where you want to spend it. whether in heaven or in hell.Eternal death is not cessation of life but seperation from God.

Eternal present is also a gift upon receiving and accepting Jesus Christ. It guarantees your escape from the lake of fire which is the second death.
"Then death and hades were cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death. And anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev.20:14-15). But they will not be among those resurrected, or changed at the coming of Jesus Christ.Because those who will be in the kingdom reigning with Christ, would have been resurrected over one thousand years before (Rev. 20:4-5).

Salvation future is everlasting life, the immortality of the human body, which is given to those who overcome just as Jesus Christ overcame (Rev.3:21). and growing in the nature of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, to answer your question, No! A christian cannot lose his salvation,"For the gifts (including eternal life)and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom.11:29). They can however forfeit their position in the ruling kingdom of God, and their immortality.


Hope that will open your eyes.

Lucius Joseph

Here is something else to think about SHEEP. Christ’s followers were to make disciples of people of all nations; so worshipers of the true God would in time be found in all those nations.

However, what is the motive of those nations when they go to war? Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest?

And like I mentioned briefly before, if true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did.

Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.

>>Being a Christian is not condusive to physical warfare<<

I can't disagree with that. I suppose I'm trying to get a feel for if you are saying "anyone involved in warfare is not a Christian" which I reject.

Also, I think, it is a little more complicated because we are called to subject ourselves to authorities. We pay taxes, obey traffic laws, etc. These goverments may be in the control of the prince of the air but "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are established by God."

Peace

And to Lucius Joseph.

Thanks for your post. I'll have to ponder what you wrote 'cause I was with you right up to the end then I lost you at your conclusion.

"anyone involved in warfare is not a Christian" which I reject.



Well, they are going against Jesus' command to put down the sword. So could they really be following in Jesus' footsteps by killing their neighbors/enemies?

Then ole dubya is not a Christian?

Not according to the Bible he isn't.

Still.... the Bible also says that a man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.

A man should provide an environment for his family that is peaceful.

Well, they are going against Jesus' command to put down the sword.
============


This is taken out of context.

The context is that this sentence of Jesus' happened in the Garden of Gesthemane. Peter started to fight the arrest of Jesus by brandishing his sword.

This of course, was not the will of God.

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In another place, Jesus says this:

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

===============================


So, He is saying that at another time, another place, his servants would fight.

So, He is saying that at another time, another place, his servants would fight.



But they won't because his kingdom is not a part of this world. Jesus does not need humans to physically fight for him. It is a spiritual fight.

A man should provide an environment for his family that is peaceful.



But not by killing his neighbor and his enemy.