Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!

Still waiting...

Explain why you keep bringing it up when it is not relative to the discussion..?
High noon in any latitude is when the angle of sun rays are least apparent. We are talking about later in the afternoon when the angles are more apparent.

And by the way..

Why don't you explain why earth-based telescopes are calibrated using stars as fixed reference points?
Why not use pre-existing co-ordinates..? Or a compass and ruler..?
And.. while you are at it.. explain why they must be calibrated constantly..?

that's from 2010....
show me one from this year (happens twice a year so we must have had one already)

Thanks Waterbug. I was going to point this out. This invalidates Manhattanhendge as "evidence" that the sun's position is constant year after year.

Blah blah blah blah......

Still waiting on TBar's response....

Hmmm... one word, leap year.

I'm sure somebody will come back with another tact..

This is your thread. I must bow out, now. I think I've made some valid points.

Got some painting to do.. car maintenance.. dog-walking..
sun-gazing.. hehe

Peace

Unless you take a measurement with a transit telescope and compare that with the established tables all you are spewing is nonsense.

Do you know the meaning of the terms "Precession" and "Nutation"?



.

Once again, not "spewing" anything. Sharing an observation.

All this hate is very telling.

Why do you think this is 'not relative to the discussion'. It IS THE FREAKIN' DISCUSSION. GO OUT AND MEASURE THE SUN YOU MORON. It's right where it's supposed to be.

People have been Measuring the Sun this way for Hundreds of years. Just because it makes you look like a Freakin Idiot doesn't mean it's not relevant. You can also measure it near Rise/Set also, but it's it little more complicated. Ever heard of an amplitude? you do that at rise & set.

Didn't you bring up Celestial Navigation a little while ago? Why are you now saying it's irrelevant? I shot my first Sunline over 40 years ago, I know a little about Celestial Navigation.

Study the Procedure Here [link to en.wikisource.org]
Use an Artificial Horizon like These Guys [link to www.mbmg.mtech.edu]
You can get a Cheap Sextant Here [link to www.celestaire.com]
To see how close Your Sight is, compare it to these tables [link to navsoft.com]

AMPLITUDES
Example: The DR latitude of a ship is 51° 24.6' N. The navigator observes the setting Sun on the celestial horizon. Its decli- Tabulated Azimuth 359.2°T Compass Bearing 358.6°C Error 0.6°E Figure 1703. The amplitude angle (A) subtends the arc of the horizon between the body and the point where the prime vertical and the equator intersect the horizon. Note that it is the compliment of the azimuth angle (Z).

Observer’s Lat. Rising/Setting Observed bearing North Rising Add to North Setting Subtract from South Rising Subtract from South Setting Add to 274 AZIMUTHS AND AMPLITUDES nation is N 19° 40.4'. Its observed bearing is 303° pgc. Required: Gyro error. Solution: Interpolate in Table 22 for the Sun’s calculated amplitude as follows. See Figure 1704. The actual values for latitude and declination are L = 51.4° N and dec. = N 19.67°. Find the tabulated values of latitude and declination closest to these actual values. In this case, these tabulated values are L = 51° and dec. = 19.5°. Record the amplitude corresponding to these base values, 32.0°, as the base amplitude.

Next, holding the base declination value constant at 19.5°, increase the value of latitude to the next tabulated value: N 52°. Note that this value of latitude was increased because the actual latitude value was greater than the base value of latitude. Record the tabulated amplitude for L = 52° and dec. = 19.5°: 32.8°. Then, holding the base latitude value constant at 51°, increase the declination value to the next tabulated value: 20°. Record the tabulated amplitude for L = 51° and dec. = 20°: 32.9°.

The latitude’s actual value (51.4°) is 0.4 of the way between the base value (51°) and the value used to determine the tabulated amplitude (52°). The declination’s actual value (19.67°) is 0.3 of the way between the base value (19.5°) and the value used to determine the tabulated amplitude (20.0°). To determine the total correction to base amplitude, multiply these increments (0.4 and 0.3) by the respective difference between the base and tabulated values (+0.8 and +0.9, respectively) and sum the products. The total correction is +0.6°. Add the total correction (+0.6°) to the base amplitude (32.0°) to determine the final amplitude (32.6°) which will be converted to a true bearing. Because of its northerly declination (in this case), the Sun was 32.6° north of west when it was on the celestial horizon. Therefore its true bearing was 302.6° (270° + 32.6°) at this moment. Comparing this with the gyro bearing of 303° gives an error of 0.4°W, which can be rounded to 1/2°W..."
[link to en.wikisource.org]

Table 22 For Amplitudes [link to msi.nga.mil]



Last Edited by TBar1984 on 08/05/2012 11:35 AM

Hey TBar, would you please explain why the Tropic of Capricorn bobs between 22 and 24 degrees over time.
If the sun is where it is supposed to be, this wouldn't happen, right?

---snip---
The Tropic of Capricorn is one of the five major circles of latitude that mark maps of the Earth. It currently (Epoch 2012) lies 23° 26′ 16″ [1] south of the Equator.
It is currently drifting north at the rate of almost half a second (0.47″) of latitude, which is about 15 metres, per year (it was at exactly 23° 27' S in year 1917).[2]
---snip---

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

Here, watch;



The Ecliptic
"The axis of the Earth is undergoing a precessional motion similar to that of a top spinning with its axis tilted. In about 25,800 years the axis completes a cycle and returns to the position from which it started. Since the celestial equator is 90° from the celestial poles, it too is moving. The result is a slow westward movement of the equinoxes and solstices, which has already carried them about 30°, or one constellation, along the ecliptic from the positions they occupied when named more than 2,000 years ago. Since sidereal hour angle is measured from the vernal equinox, and declination from the celestial equator, the coordinates of celestial bodies would be changing even if the bodies themselves were stationary. This westward motion of the equinoxes along the ecliptic is called precession of the equinoxes. The total amount, called general precession, is about 50 seconds of arc per year. It may be considered divided into two components: precession in right ascension (about 46.10 seconds per year) measured along the celestial equator, and precession in declination (about 20.04" per year) measured perpendicular to the celestial equator. The annual change in the coordinates of any given star, due to precession alone, depends upon its position on the celestial sphere, since these coordinates are measured relative to the polar axis while the precessional motion is relative to the ecliptic axis.

Due to precession of the equinoxes, the celestial poles are slowly describing circles in the sky. The north celestial pole is moving closer to Polaris, which it will pass at a distance of approximately 28 minutes about the year 2102. Following this, the polar distance will increase, and eventually other stars, in their turn, will become the Pole Star.

The precession of the Earth’s axis is the result of gravitational forces exerted principally by the Sun and Moon on the Earth’s equatorial bulge. The spinning Earth responds to these forces in the manner of a gyroscope. Regression of the nodes introduces certain irregularities known as nutation in the precessional motion. See Figure 1519c."
[link to en.wikisource.org]

Tropic of Capricorn
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
"The Tropic of Capricorn is so named because when the Sun reaches the zenith at this latitude, it is entering the tropical sign of Capricorn (winter solstice). When it was named, about 2,000 years ago, the sun was also in the direction of the constellation Capricornus (capricorn is Latin for goat horn) at the December solstice. In modern times the sun appears in the constellation Sagittarius during this time. The change is due to precession of the equinoxes. The word "tropic" itself comes from the Greek tropos, meaning turn, referring to the fact that the sun appears to "turn back" at the solstices..."

SEE THE ABOVE VIDEO.

YES, IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS.
Just because you don't know how things are 'supposed to be' doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the way things are...

Last Edited by TBar1984 on 08/05/2012 12:41 PM

MISNOMER!

So there is no entry about this in your shilling handbook?

Since we know for a fact the Earth axis hasn't moved to any significant degree you will have to find another explanation for these alleged "observations".

I know! And so persistent???

I like reading all the posts, but I'm getting rather tired of being considered ignorant, uneducated, etc. Especially, when I was asking questions.
I hope none of these guys are teachers. I'd pull my kid out of their class. LOL!

Honestly, though, I didn't intend to post anything after I posted my observations, but the thread took a turn for the strange.

Apparent Motion due to Revolution of the Earth
"...Apparent motions of planets and the Moon are due to a combination of their motions and those of the Earth. If the rotation of the Earth were stopped, the combined apparent motion due to the revolutions of the Earth and other bodies would be similar to that occurring if both rotation and revolution of the Earth were stopped. Stars would appear nearly stationary in the sky but would undergo a small annual cycle of change due to aberration. The motion of the Earth in its orbit is sufficiently fast to cause the light from stars to appear to shift slightly in the direction of the Earth’s motion. This is similar to the effect one experiences when walking in vertically-falling rain that appears to come from ahead due to the observer’s own forward motion. The apparent direction of the light ray from the star is the vector difference of the motion of light and the motion of the Earth, similar to that of apparent wind on a moving vessel. This effect is most apparent for a body perpendicular to the line of travel of the Earth in its orbit, for which it reaches a maximum value of 20.5". The effect of aberration can be noted by comparing the coordinates (declination and sidereal hour angle) of various stars throughout the year. A change is observed in some bodies as the year progresses, but at the end of the year the values have returned almost to what they were at the beginning. The reason they do not return exactly is due to proper motion and precession of the equinoxes. It is also due to nutation, an irregularity in the motion of the Earth due to the disturbing effect of other celestial bodies, principally the Moon. Polar motion is a slight wobbling of the Earth about its axis of rotation and sometimes wandering of the poles. This motion, which does not exceed 40 feet from the mean position, produces slight variation of latitude and longitude of places on the Earth..."
[link to en.wikisource.org]

Nutation
"The nutation of a planet happens because of tidal forces that cause the precession of the equinoxes to vary over time so that the speed of precession is not constant. The nutation of the axis of the Earth was discovered in 1728 by the British astronomer James Bradley, but this nutation was not explained in detail until 20 years later.[1] Because the dynamic motions of the planets are so well-known, their nutations can be calculated to within arcseconds over periods of many decades. There is another disturbance of the Earth's rotation called polar motion that can be estimated for only a few months into the future because it is influenced by rapidly and unpredictably varying things such as ocean currents, wind systems, and motions in the liquid nickel-iron core of the Earth. Values of nutations are usually divided into components parallel and perpendicular to the ecliptic. The component that works along the ecliptic is known as the nutation in longitude. The component perpendicular to the ecliptic is known as the nutation in obliquity. Celestial coordinate systems are based on an "equator" and "equinox," which means a great circle in the sky that is the projection of the Earth's equator outwards, and a line, the Vernal equinox intersecting that circle, which determines the starting point for measurement of right ascension. These items are affected both by precession of the equinoxes and nutation, and thus depend on the theories applied to precession and nutation, and on the date used as a reference date for the coordinate system. In simpler terms, nutation (and precession) values are important in observation from Earth for calculating the apparent positions of astronomical objects...."

"Nutation makes a small change to the angle at which the Earth tilts with respect to the Sun, thereby moving the location of the Tropic of Cancer, the most northerly latitude which the Sun can reach directly overhead. All four major circles of latitude that are defined by the Earth's tilt (both Tropical Circles and both Polar Circles) will shift correspondingly."
[link to en.wikipedia.org]

YES, IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS.
Just because you don't know how things are 'supposed to be' doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the way things are...

Kind words.

I despise bullies..

I’ve observed the climate changing in two areas of Canada, getting warmer, which ‘might’ support the possibility of a sun that sets more northward.


And you stop right there, at "MIGHT"- ignoring all evidence available that it simply isn't true. You just WANT to believe that, so you refuse to take a chance on blowing that idea out of the water.




No, they are not making "OBSERVATIONS"- they are making CONCLUSIONS, which are demonstrably false. There *IS* a difference.

The "conspiracy" seems to be coming from fear-mongering people who want others to think the sun is out of place. No matter what proof is offered showing that it isn't true, they ignort it and keep harping that the sun is out of place. Hmm... that should make you wonder just what is behind this push...

Been drinking too much beer again, Miggy? Why don't you remind people how you claimed that scientists have admitted Earth's axis has shifted 4 degrees? YOU seem to be the lying conspiritor, here, Miggy.

No, take some pics and prove it to us HERE! You won't because you can't. Period.

But not a single one of you seems to be able to find any photos showing this. I wonder why. No... I don't.

I think *YOU* said you were going to pose it to actual astronomers. When are you going to do that and report back?

The sun seems to rise further north in the east that it should for this time of year.

What I notice more is that sunset and/or total darkness is later in the evening that it should be.

We are a month and a half past the solstice. We should lose at least 2 minutes of daylight each day. But it seems it is almost as light in the evening as the long day of the summer solstice. It definitely does not seem that we have lost 90 minutes of daylight in the evening.

Location: Central Kentucky. Eastern side of Eastern time zone.

Note: No response from Waterbug. When I try to get Waterbug to spell out his specific claims and offer support for the idea that the sun is RADICALLY out of place in the sky, he IGNORES it!

Waterbug is a fear-mongering shill for the "SUN OUT OF PLACE" cult. He KNOWS there is no valid scientific evidence to support the idea that the sun is wildly out of place in the sky, so he trolls with stories of MINISCULE variations in Earth's rotation and axis in hopes that people reading it will not understand the TINY scale of those events.

THIS is the true conspiracy action taking place here- it is from those who are trying to instill fear that something is wrong with the sun's position in the sky when it is not wrong at all.

Asking WHAT questions? Ask away. Those who actually KNOW something about astronomy will be glad to answer, I'm sure.