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Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU

 
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 03:20 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


bumpbumpbump
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:22 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679

Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
AgnosticDeity

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02/04/2013 03:27 PM

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...


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that?
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:30 PM

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Actually, while raised a Christian, I am much older than you imagine and have intentionally chosen to believe in Christianity by studying it. I have believed it by using Faith and Reason in a very disciplined way by a mind trained in college and graduate school. I am hardly indoctrinated.

Are you indoctrinated? I wouldn't ever say such things, for do you not have Free Will, or are you an automaton? I don't know anyone save those who truly was indoctrinated by going through a starvation process mostly of carbohydrates and went through a long period of sleep deprivation and so became mentally broken through a cult process. Those folks are rare and universally identified, for example like the Unification Church. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Christians only believe because of indoctrination, for in reality they have autonomy and can easily choose what they believe, just as atheists choose what they believe.

I agree that some faiths if lived into might lead to a world of harmony. Most faiths in history can get along, although there are periods in which fundamentalists of all religions have persecuted each other. Even Buddhists who are known for being peaceful (which is a stereotype not always bourne out by reality) have engaged in ethnic cleansing. Your model is very simplistic and stereotypical.

In Gnostic thought, which seems to be your thought, Lucifer is the lightbringer and so in that religion, the one in which Christians feel is the incarnation of Evil is the last one they'd worship. I hope you're not believing in that discredited spiritual system.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I am not a gnostic but who discredited gnostic thought? You? Your church?

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation.

So you see, your religion's obsession with evil was wrong about Gnosis. The previous paragraph was copied from the Gnosis Archive ( [link to gnosis.org] Christianity's mission is to discredit any other religion or philosophy to maintain that Christianity is the only true religion. You have studied your religion but you have not opened your mind to the study of other religions or philosophic thought so you have no right to condemn them or subject them to evil intentions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Gnostics believe this, which I believe is PURE EVIL.
[link to www.theforbiddenreligion.com]
"11. LUCIFER, THE LIBERATOR

Gnostic myths relate that Lucifer is the Messenger of the Unknowable God. We had said that this God, the greatest one, unreachable and unknowable, is unable to penetrate this limited universe of impure and satanic matter. But according to these myths, he can send someone, Lucifer. Only with a supreme sacrifice can an incredibly Spiritual and pure being of antimatter fire break through into the infernal world of this universe. According to Gnostic legends and myths, the great Unknowable God sent Lucifer, angel of indescribable fire and light, to show man the light and to help him wake up and see his true origin, the origin of his Spirit, which has been perversely imprisoned in this impure matter called body-soul. He is an uncreated being, who came to the created world to bring Light: Liberating Gnosis. The saving knowledge which can wake man up and help him free his imprisoned Spirit. The knowledge which allows him to know who he truly is, why he is here in this world and what he has to do to liberate himself and fulfil his Spirit, which belongs to another uncreated and unknowable plane.

We have said that Lucifer came to the world to wake man up, to help him remember his divine origin, the divine origin of his Spirit, and to help him free himself from the body-soul in which he is trapped, and from created time and matter. "
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


"Gnostic myths ..." need I say more? Someone, maybe a long-lost angry Christian, may have hung that myth on the Gnostics and it stuck. It does not say they believe it, it simply states what the myth said. Learn to read and apprehend before you shoot arrows at something you know nothing about except hearsay.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24392638


Let's look at some Gnostic websites and see what they say about Lucifer, shall we? After all, a Gnostic site would be quite authoritative versus a Christian interpretation, don't you think?
[link to gnosticteachings.org]
" The Major Mysteries, a book by Samael Aun Weor
Jehovah, Lucifer, Christ
Within the gigantic patios of the temples of ancient Lemuria, men and women united sexually in order to create; at that time the sexual act was guided by the Elohim. Man and woman (sexually united) knew how to withdraw before the orgasm in order to avoid the seminal ejaculation.

At that time, the Elohim were utilizing one spermatozoon and one feminine gamete in order to create, since only one spermatozoon and one feminine gamete are needed in order to create. A spermatozoon is so infinitesimal, so microscopic, that it can easily escape from the sexual male glands without the necessity of spilling the semen. This is how the Edenic being sexually reproduces. This is how the children of Immaculate Conception are born. This is what Immaculate Conception means.

Lucifer tempted the human being and the human being fell into temptation. Lucifer as a black magician wears a bloody colored tunic and covers his head with a red cap like the Bons and the Drukpas from oriental Tibet. The lustful forces of the Luciferians awoke animal passion within human beings; then men and women started to ejaculate their semen. This is the cause for which the Lemurian tribes were expelled from the temples.

Then, in those times of yore, the Kundalini, that was victoriously lifted up in the medullar canal, descended to the coccygeal bone and there it lingered, enclosed within the chakra Muladhara. The lamp of the temple was snuffed out and the human being sank himself into profound darkness.

Thus, this is how the Edenic being died and the Luciferian being was born. Then, when the human being ate from the forbidden fruit, the Lord Jehovah said,...."

[link to www.netplaces.com]
"Sophia's Fall by Meera Lester

The story of Sophia's fall begins with the idea of an original and unknowable First Parent (also known as Godhead, Forefather, Unknowable One, Monad, Root, Logos, All Begotten, First Mystery, and Aeon). The Godhead emanated pairs of “lesser” beings, quasi gods, of which Sophia and Christ were the youngest/lowest pair. These lesser gods with the Godhead made up the fullness of Pleroma (heaven).

Following her emanation from the Godhead, Sophia feared losing knowledge and the light of the One. She longed to return to it. In her passion and longing, without either the help of her male counterpart or permission from the Godhead, she undertook the action of “emanating” a being — the Demiurge, a formless entity outside of the Pleroma.

This is the crisis in the story of Sophia. It came about not because of a sexual creational act but because of a masculine/feminine imbalance. Sophia's action disturbed the harmony of the Pleroma. The early Gnostics, as already noted, considered Christ the masculine counterpart of Sophia. The masculine name for Sophia is Lucifer (hêlêl in Hebrew, which means “shining one”). Some have equated the Demiurge, her offspring, as Satan."

[link to usminc.org]
"The word "Gnostic" is actually an umbrella term for many different heretical religious sects. These groups arose primarily around 200-400 A.D. Rather than being some kind of "long lost Christianity" or "original Christianity" which you might have read about, this is far from the truth!

Gnosticism existed in the Pagan religions of Persia around the 1st Century B.C. Since Gnosticism was a Pagan religion that existed a century before Christ, it is impossible it was somehow the "original" Christianity. It would be like saying Olympian Paganism was the original Christianity.

No Gnostic scriptures have been found older than the 5th century A.D. Gnosticism was a rebellion against traditional Christian beliefs and attempted to combine Paganism with Christianity. Some Gnostic groups had beliefs that often contradicted the beliefs of other Gnostic groups. The one thing thay all had in common was that all of these groups departed from the orthodox Christian faith. Some of the various beliefs of these groups included:
*A belief in reincarnation

* That Lucifer and Christ were brothers

* That Jesus was not the only begotten Son of God

*That Jesus was actually the Archangel Michael

*That Jesus was all divine and not man

*That Jesus and Christ were two separate beings

*That the Creator God of the Old Testament was evil

* A rejection of all the sacred books of the Old Testament

*That John the Baptist was actually the Messiah, not Jesus

*That Satan is really Christ’s father and the God of the Old Testament is the Devil
Adventus Domini

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02/04/2013 03:32 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
...


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:34 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Gnostic thought has ZERO in common with Christianity. They're batting for the opposite team. Don't be fooled when they talk as if they're all about hidden knowledge in enlightenment. They really are being reverent to Lucifer, and hense worship Evil. It's a spiritual system based upon the opposite of Christianity. Their motto is "Do as though wilt...". There is no good or evil in that system.

It is an abomination.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 05:01 PM
AgnosticDeity

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02/04/2013 03:35 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
...


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will.

My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:38 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Another proof of the existence of God, this time by Thomas Aquinas:
[link to www.fordham.edu]
"The first and plainest is the method that proceeds from the point of view of motion. It is certain and in accord with experience, that things on earth undergo change. Now, everything that is moved is moved by something; nothing, indeed, is changed, except it is changed to something which it is in potentiality. Moreover, anything moves in accordance with something actually existing; change itself, is nothing else than to bring forth something from potentiality into actuality. Now, nothing can be brought from potentiality to actual existence except through something actually existing: thus heat in action, as fire, makes fire-wood, which is hot in potentiality, to be hot actually, and through this process, changes itself. The same thing cannot at the same time be actually and potentially the same thing, but only in regard to different things. What is actually hot cannot be at the same time potentially hot, but it is possible for it at the same time to be potentially cold. It is impossible, then, that anything should be both mover and the thing moved, in regard to the same thing and in the same way, or that it should move itself. Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand. Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing---and this all men know as God. "
Adventus Domini

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02/04/2013 03:40 PM

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...


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will.

My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


All you see is the darkness. The light dispells the darkness, but that requires letting the light in.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:42 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Another proof of the existence of God:
[link to www.philosophyofreligion.info]
"The Argument from Contingency

In the case of the argument from contingency, the distinction drawn between the universe and God is that the existence of the universe is contingent, i.e. that the universe could have not existed. Everything that exists contingently, the argument from contingency claims, has a cause of its existence. As the universe is contingent, then, the universe has a cause of its existence, and that cause is God.

The uncaused existence of God, whose existence is not contingent but rather is necessary, is consistent with the initial claim of this argument: “Everything contingent has a cause.” Again, then, God’s uncaused existence does not give rise to the problem encountered in the discussion of the simple cosmological argument above.

Each of these two forms of the cosmological argument, then, evades the objection introduced above in a distinct way. The first does so by distinguishing between things that have a beginning in time and things that do not. The second does so by distinguishing between things that are contingent and things that are necessary. In each case it is argued that the universe is of the former kind, that God is of the latter kind, and that the principle that everything has a cause applies only to things of the former kind, and therefore not to God."
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:43 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Another proof for the existence of God:
[link to www.philosophyofreligion.info]
"The Perfectionist Moral Argument

(1) We ought to be morally perfect.
(2) If we ought to be morally perfect, then we can be morally perfect.
(3) We cannot be morally perfect unless God exists.
Therefore:
(4) God exists."

Kant's moral argument for God:
[link to www.philosophyofreligion.info]
"Kant’s Moral Argument

(1) Moral behaviour is rational.
(2) Morality behaviour is only rational if justice will be done.
(3) Justice will only be done if God exists.
Therefore:
(4) God exists.
Moral Behaviour is Rational

Moral behaviour, Kant is adamant, is rational behaviour; we have good reason to be moral. This is a fundamental principle of morality: if you ought to do something then you have a reason to do it. It makes no sense to say “I see that I ought to give money to charity, but I have no reason to.” If we ought to do something then that is a reason to do it. What is more, a moral reason is always a stronger reason for doing something than any other reason. If we have a moral reason to do a thing, and another reason not to do it, then rationally speaking we ought to do it. Moral behaviour is always rational.
Moral Behaviour is Only Rational if Justice Will be Done"

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 03:43 PM
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:48 PM

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Kierkegaard's Arguement for believing in God even through one cannot use Reason to prove God's existence (see my post on Reason alone not being able to prove or disprove God)
[link to philosophy.lander.edu]
"An [unknown thing] is an existent thing.
God is an [unknown thing].
God is an existent thing.

The syllogism is of the valid form:

All B's and C's.
All A's are B's.
All A's are C's

In an argument, one gives reasons, grounds, and evidence for the acceptance of a conclusion. Existence must be assumed in the premisses; it cannot be proved. Occasionally, this point is expressed as "Existence is not a predicate."

Consider the following inferences from the Square of Opposition:

All philosophy students are awake ----------> At least one philosophy student is awake.
All unicorns have horns ---------> At least one unicorn has a horn.

If the subject of the conclusion exists and the conclusion is true, then we must have assumed the existence of that subject in the premisses of the argument.

For example, one does not prove Napoleon's existence from his deeds.

An unknown invaded Russia, lost the Waterloo campaign, was exiled to Elba, and so on.
Napoleon is the unknown.

If we tried to prove the existence of God by a posteriori means, then we could never finish listing the events in the natural order. Thus, the proof would be incomplete--we would be anxiously awaiting future events.

Again, existence explains the deeds, but the deeds do not prove existence.

Thus, Kierkegaard says we would be living in suspense until the proof is complete. The proof would hang on future occurrences."
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 03:50 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Kierkegaard's arguement for God explained:
[link to www.kemstone.com]

"When we brush up against the Unknown, Kierkegaard asserts, the Reason may choose at its pleasure what to
place beyond this limit. In most cases, this is God—or whatever conception of God the Reason can conceive.
Yet it is impossible to accept this as proof of God’s existence, as on some level we must always be aware that this
God is merely a conception of our minds, which we have chosen quite arbitrarily to put in place of the Unknown.
Kierkegaard offers another analogy, conceiving of a man like any other man who is also God. He cannot know
this man is God because in order to know this he would have to understand the nature of the difference between
God and man, which is impossible because “the Reason has reduced it to likeness with that from which it was
unlike. Thus God becomes the most terrible of deceivers, because the Reason has deceived itself. The Reason
has brought God as near as possible, and yet he is as far away as ever” (94).

The heart of Kierkegaard’s argument actually comes several paragraphs earlier, in which he points out the only
way to arrive at God across this gap which Reason can not bridge is to make a leap of faith. God’s existence
can not be proven because His existence is uncertain as long as I am engaged in proving it. “But when I let go,
the existence is there. But this act of letting go is surely also something; it is indeed a contribution of mine. Must
not this also be taken into the account, this little moment, brief as it may be—it need not be long, for it is a leap”
(93). Thus God’s existence is founded in our minds not on the basis of logic or reason, but purely on faith, and
what is meant by faith in Kierkegaard’s mind is to let go of the proof and merely believe in God’s existence.

One need not have proof of God’s existence to believe in it—it would in fact be absurd to believe that God will
not exist until we have proof. Most people who believe in God understand that His existence can not be proven,
and many theologians would assert that this is in fact deliberate on the part of God; faith itself would have no value
if belief in God did not require faith but merely an understanding of the logic by which God’s existence can be
conclusively established.

I believe that if all religious people understood their own faith in the sense in which Kierkegaard paints it, it would
do much to eliminate many of the evils that come out of religion. It is not belief in God from which most of the
atrocities committed by the “faithful” over the centuries has sprung, but rather the certainty that they have
believed themselves to have as to the doctrines of their own religion. If they understood that the tenets of their
religion are not established on firm logical grounds but are merely founded in faith—by their own willingness to
believe in spite of the lack of any proof or certainty—they will perhaps be less quick to judge non-believers or
people of other faiths as wrong or worthy of punishment.

So although I have not chosen with Kierkegaard to make this leap of faith, I believe that an understanding of the
nature of a leap of faith is very important and ought to be more widely recognised. As for the inability of God’s
existence to be proven on rational grounds, I agree completely, and credit Kierkegaard with some of the most
forceful reasoning I have encountered to establish this point."
AgnosticDeity

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02/04/2013 04:06 PM

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How can anyone honestly believe that God is love and justice??? This is one of the biggest fallacies involved with christanity. Your god is a voyeur. He watches his creations suffer and deal with injustice every day. How does this display his love and justice? Children beaten, raped, and starved. Where is his love and justice in that?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will.

My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


All you see is the darkness. The light dispells the darkness, but that requires letting the light in.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Maybe I'm not communicating my point well enough, so I'll use an example.

I have 2 children were I ever to see either of them in danger, or suffering, I would do whatever was in my power to end that suffering. Your god turns a blind eye to the suffering of the billions of his supposed children. Now where is the love in that example?

Will my children suffer hardship that I cannot help them with? Absolutely. The difference is that I am not an omnipresent omnipotent all powerful being. Because if I were the answer to my previous question would be not a damn chance.
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 04:12 PM

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So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will.

My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


All you see is the darkness. The light dispells the darkness, but that requires letting the light in.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Maybe I'm not communicating my point well enough, so I'll use an example.

I have 2 children were I ever to see either of them in danger, or suffering, I would do whatever was in my power to end that suffering. Your god turns a blind eye to the suffering of the billions of his supposed children. Now where is the love in that example?

Will my children suffer hardship that I cannot help them with? Absolutely. The difference is that I am not an omnipresent omnipotent all powerful being. Because if I were the answer to my previous question would be not a damn chance.
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


I'll attempt this, but I'm exhausted so you might have to wait for a reply.

Supposed that God decided, "I will set things in motion for Humanity to be stewards of my Creation. That's what I set in motion as the covenant between us in the Garden of Eden. They possess all they need to care for one another. They have two hand to hold, two legs to move, a highly advanced brain, eyesight, a mouth to communicate, etc. Because of Free Will, I cannot directly intervene, for to do so would violate that Law. I sent my Son to intervene as a ransom for All Time. They chose to crucify Him as I foresaw it. Now they must fix the mess that they're in. I will watch and affect the Universe, but the problem of suffering is theirs to solve, for by doing so, they will understand the difficulties of Love and Discord, Good and Evil, and I cannot explain it all any more than I already have done so. In fact, because of grace, they can accept eternal life simply by believing in my Son and accepting grace since they cannot stop sinning."

This is one reason suffering might exist. Who can know?

Remember, how do you feel about an amoeba? Do you think twice about one? Yet God loves people through time (for the most part save the enemies of Israel). Who is more loving, one single being who cares for their own children, or God?

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 04:16 PM
Adventus Domini

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So you agree that it is a fallen world? There will be justice -- there will be judgement!

Jesus Christ payed a price we could not pay. Now that is love.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Actually he paid the same price we all eventually pay. He died just like each and every one of us will.

My question is how can you preach about gods love when there is absolutely no evidence of it?
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


All you see is the darkness. The light dispells the darkness, but that requires letting the light in.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Maybe I'm not communicating my point well enough, so I'll use an example.

I have 2 children were I ever to see either of them in danger, or suffering, I would do whatever was in my power to end that suffering. Your god turns a blind eye to the suffering of the billions of his supposed children. Now where is the love in that example?

Will my children suffer hardship that I cannot help them with? Absolutely. The difference is that I am not an omnipresent omnipotent all powerful being. Because if I were the answer to my previous question would be not a damn chance.
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


A few quick points and then I have to go:

This is a fallen world and will remain so until that changes… and it will. Our time here is a vapor in the scope of eternity.

Mankind’s depth of evil is astounding – our inhumanity toward each other seems limitless at times. We are not robots that are programmed to love and serve God, and to love our neighbors. That much is clear.

We are all God’s creation and he wishes that none were lost. However, we become God’s children by choice.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Gamberro
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02/04/2013 04:50 PM
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Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Before getting angry with those trapped in their 'opinions' of the mind, please consider that what you 'feel' to be 'real' could be simply your own MIND. Careful, as the MIND is a programmed 'trick'.

For you to then 'believe' in God based upon your own mind would be as trapped in a 'belief' system as the atheists and believers you hurl you last line of hate towards.

What is provable? The physical - since the mind is NOT real.

peace



.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9744765


What up what up, first post, interesting conversation so thought I'd chime in.
Alright so as to the physical being provable, that's entirely incorrect. Even what's physical is subjective. You can have a million scientists examine the same data and come to the same conclusion, but it still isn't relative. That's why they call gravity a "theory". Billions of people will attest to their experience with gravity, but in science, there is no absolute. Now what you can do, is say, "Hey, I have a million scientists saying the same thing, so I'm 99.9999% sure that this is an accurate conclusion." But every one of those scientists could be working off a flawed paradigm, all that you can really do is be relatively assured.

Now a few people in this thread mentioned "experiential data" as their motivation for their beliefs. This was what finally pushed me to Christ as well.
For a long time, based on bizarre occurrences in my life, I sensed the existence of a supreme being, but I never was entirely willing to put a name on it until I was hit by a break-through, a flash of realization, an epiphany, while on a bus to New York. My experience confirms not only the existence of God in my life, but that Jesus came as His Savior. Am I to think I am insane for experiencing the same epiphany that millions of others have felt before? I was lucky enough to have a personal divine experience. Why would I deny myself that, after a lifetime of noticing this presence? That would be foolish.

Now most people don't have that epiphany, which gives them that divine realization. I've been blessed with that. But as far as giving testimony, it's my job. If I see a solid object falling from the sky, I'm going to warn the people around me. Even if they don't believe me at first, I will repeat again and again that they need to move before being crushed, because I care about other people naturally, but also because it's set forth as our mission as Christians.

I believe in God, and there is very solid historical data to support the works of Jesus, but I suppose if it was so obvious, then it wouldn't be called "faith", now would it? However I can't imagine the experience that would lead someone to say with a sense of conviction that there is NO GOD. Patterns in nature suggest an intelligence to our evolution, but even if you want to suggest that there's no God there's just no data, subjective n'or objective, that supports that. All you can say is, "I personally don't have a relationship with God." And I, as a rational person, will without second thought tolerate that. Because we are who we are.
But it isn't my opinion that there is a God, it is my personal and undeniable experience. My experience forms my concept of reality, so to toss that away would be on the same level, as I mentioned earlier, as tossing away gravity, tossing away the basic laws of life which each have their own solid foundations in culture and in our personal experiences. Just like God.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 05:02 PM
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Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679

Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 05:06 PM

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Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679

Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 05:07 PM
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 06:10 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679

Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I'll double that FAIL flag. Good job having an original perspective from a TV show.
AgnosticDeity

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02/04/2013 06:37 PM

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Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I'll double that FAIL flag. Good job having an original perspective from a TV show.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27181088


And the televangelists you guys are so fond of linking videos to, who also do their own research, and are ENTERTAINERS in their own right are more valid how?

I don't endorse Penn and Teller, but I have watched several episodes of their show Bullshit. While I don't always fall on their side of the argument, I must admit that they generally know what they are talking about when they open their mouths.
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2013 07:01 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Here are the FACTS


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679

Are you going to interject what you feel is a fact within that video? Or are you too lazy to try to debate?
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


You won't even listen dude, sorry you can't handle the truth.

The title is "fact or fiction" ... Facts and truth is brought out.

Guess people only are waiting to listen to the "talking snake" From the bible eh?

Ridiculous
Gamberro
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02/04/2013 07:07 PM
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The entire video is the "facts" done professionally.

Try watching with a logical mind.
I don't need to say anything, all the evidense is in the video.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4294679


Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I'll double that FAIL flag. Good job having an original perspective from a TV show.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27181088


And the televangelists you guys are so fond of linking videos to, who also do their own research, and are ENTERTAINERS in their own right are more valid how?

I don't endorse Penn and Teller, but I have watched several episodes of their show Bullshit. While I don't always fall on their side of the argument, I must admit that they generally know what they are talking about when they open their mouths.
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


I just got finished watching the episode, not out of respect for the lazy ass that posted the video like it were an original retort, but out of respect for the fact that beforehand I was actually already WATCHING the same season of Penn & Teller. Kinda weird, huh?

Well, the whole episode was an analysis of the Bible as factually accurate in a LITERAL sense, which I think you will find many people do not agree with. I consider the majority of the Old Book to be figurative language, as that was the common method of communicating in literature in the day. The atheist speaker wouldn't disagree with me on that, and it appears the apologist wouldn't for the most part, either.

To argue against the factual nature of the Bible in a literal sense, PARTICULARLY the Old Book, doesn't shift this particular conversation one way or another-- a conversation which is mostly philosophical in nature. The Bible wasn't generally interpreted in that manner until the last few centuries, and the people that follow that philosophy, with all respect, do a disservice to Christianity by putting forth shaky and potentially disprovable arguments as if they were the foundations of their faith. As Penn might say, There are two creation stories for fuck's sake! Obviously there's more to it than just black and white.

But once more,
Gamberro
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02/04/2013 07:13 PM
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But once more,
 Quoting: Gamberro 27181088


That video was a verrry rudimentary breakdown of common atheist arguments. I think P&T's research team took a vacation for that episode, because any knucklehead could have watched a ten-minute power point on the base arguments of atheism against a literally factual Bible and picked up all those points. Pretty pointless to post it as an argument, or even suggest that it imparts any original information.

So you posted a quote of a video which quotes other people quoting people. Work those brain cells a little harder.
AgnosticDeity

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02/04/2013 07:20 PM

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Extremely lame. I post all kinds of personal statements, historical proofs by theologians and philosophers, speak to the defense of atheists and agnostics, discuss building a common dialogue around reason and the dialectic, act as an apologist for God,etc.

You made a post about two entertainer magicians....
HOO BOY
Complete abject failure.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


I'll double that FAIL flag. Good job having an original perspective from a TV show.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27181088


And the televangelists you guys are so fond of linking videos to, who also do their own research, and are ENTERTAINERS in their own right are more valid how?

I don't endorse Penn and Teller, but I have watched several episodes of their show Bullshit. While I don't always fall on their side of the argument, I must admit that they generally know what they are talking about when they open their mouths.
 Quoting: AgnosticDeity


I just got finished watching the episode, not out of respect for the lazy ass that posted the video like it were an original retort, but out of respect for the fact that beforehand I was actually already WATCHING the same season of Penn & Teller. Kinda weird, huh?

Well, the whole episode was an analysis of the Bible as factually accurate in a LITERAL sense, which I think you will find many people do not agree with. I consider the majority of the Old Book to be figurative language, as that was the common method of communicating in literature in the day. The atheist speaker wouldn't disagree with me on that, and it appears the apologist wouldn't for the most part, either.

To argue against the factual nature of the Bible in a literal sense, PARTICULARLY the Old Book, doesn't shift this particular conversation one way or another-- a conversation which is mostly philosophical in nature. The Bible wasn't generally interpreted in that manner until the last few centuries, and the people that follow that philosophy, with all respect, do a disservice to Christianity by putting forth shaky and potentially disprovable arguments as if they were the foundations of their faith. As Penn might say, There are two creation stories for fuck's sake! Obviously there's more to it than just black and white.

But once more,
 Quoting: Gamberro 27181088


Living in the deep south I find more and more that people take the bible literally, OT and NT. Maybe its just a southern baptist thing, couldn't say. But I do agree that they do their faith a disservice by spouting prose and allegory as fact.

I'm completely open to the idea of a "higher power". What I am dead set against is the mindset that my god is better than your god and you'll burn in hell for it because I'm sending you there.

FACT: There is no one true religion.

FACT: When you condemn someone who believes in a religion that isn't yours you do a disservice to your own cause.

FACT: Man will never be able to prove through any means the existence or non existence of "God".

FACT: As long as there is religion men will kill one another in God's name.

Your relationship with your deity of choice is a very personal, and good thing

And please remember witnessing is one thing... Browbeating is another.
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Don'tBeAfraid

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02/04/2013 08:04 PM

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Let's get right to it.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real.

No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real.

All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

How can I say all this with certainty?

BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all.

No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data.

A true atheist "lacks a belief" and that is a perfectly honest position to hold. However, the rabid atheists who argue endlessly that "there is no God" are taking the same leap of faith that the proselytizing Christians are.

SO--is there a GOD?

My experiential data (a near-death experience that was seemingly as "real" as anything else I've experienced) says YES.

That's why I believe in God.

But I'd be a liar if I said that my NDE provides "proof"--even to myself. After all, my dreams are as "real" as anything even when I'm walking on the ceiling and lightsaber fighting and flying a MIG--all with a head full of outlandish memories.

So...all of you know-it-alls arguing FOR or AGAINST the concept of "God" need to
fuckoff2
because your arguments ARE DEMONSTRABLY FLAWED.
 Quoting: simultaneous_final


Now all these posts later, do any of you remember the original statements above? I challenge you to go back and read that post.

"No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is real."

Actually several famous philosophers throughout history have proved the existence of God. I've demonstrated several of those here: St. Anselm, Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, CS Lewis, etc.

"No one can prove that "God" or any variation thereof the concept is NOT real."

Actually there are proofs, but none of you have posted any of them. Isn't there one philosopher among you?

"All arguments are moot without assuming a "given".

Wrong. There are givens see all of the philosopher posts on the existence of God.

"BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT THEY'RE NOT DREAMING RIGHT NOW, with fabricated memories and all."

Actually, as far as I know, I am the only person to prove that you're not deluded but conscious by the repeatability of a pendulum experiment. You can have others repeat the experiment too in order to prove "they" exist. You can have many scientists prove the same experiment over time and prove that "reality" exists.
Thread: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU (Page 6)
Didn't any of you take a philosophy course where you had to prove this? I did. It was in my first week of class.

"How can I say all this with certainty?"

See the certainty I proved.

"No matter what, FAITH is required just to participate in whatever you think is reality.

Both atheists and God-believers base their beliefs on FAITH in experiential data. "

AGREED. See Soren Kierkegaard.

Thread: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU (Page 11)
Thread: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU (Page 11)

The major point is not whether God is brutal, the Bible is valid, whether Christians or atheists are deluded . The main goal of THIS TOPIC was to answer those questions the OP stated.

All the other questions are interesting, but so are a million others and we could talk about those at some length, but they deserve their own topic.

The reality is that topics like this don't persuade anyone. People have tried throughout history. The fact that there are proofs on the existence of reality or God don't persuade the average person because they don't understand philosophy but "want proof damnit..." Well there is no evidence.

Witnessing is about sharing faith, not reason. It doesn't work via an Internet topic, it works by building schools and hospitals and actually caring for your fellow Man.

Does that sound familiar? See previous postings I made on it.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 08:29 PM
Anonymous Coward
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Gnostic thought has ZERO in common with Christianity. They're batting for the opposite team. Don't be fooled when they talk as if they're all about hidden knowledge in enlightenment. They really are being reverent to Lucifer, and hense worship Evil. It's a spiritual system based upon the opposite of Christianity. Their motto is "Do as though wilt...". There is no good or evil in that system.

It is an abomination.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Lucifer is a made up part of the game, and it accounts for the crap the manipulators were going to pull off on this planet...

The Christian thought;

It is supernatural, nothing we can do about it... We have to wait until god, jesus takes care of the situation...Just be good, be re-born, don't sin anymore, be as little children, and you will be in heaven with me...
Talk about diffusing any real resistance...

Witches and Warlocks were burned at the stake for awakening to their nature... There is power in occult knowledge, and no, it is not evil in itself, it is neutral... The use of it lies with the holder, and it can be used for so-called evil, or so-called good, or balance purposes...

The churches did not want this knowledge to spread, and dealt with the situation, in a matter of fact gruesome manner... In other words, the jig would have been up, if it was not contained...

The thought is not, "do as though wilt"... The thought is "grow in spiritual knowledge", and take full responsibility for yourself...

The true abomination, the true evil, is Christianity...
Anonymous Coward
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...


You know, it is nice to quote those verse's, they sound nice, and I am sure they are empowering to those of the faith... Following them, I am relatively certain gives people peace of mind...

But, for me, I see a big scam going on...

Using a concept, such as a prime source, which in my opinion is very accurate, then implanting the idea that this source, through disciples, laid down commandments, and sent his only son to redeem the world, due to a corruption by satan, is RIDICULOUS...

A control mechanism of the highest order, set up in a hierarchial manner to maintain and instill this paradigm...

Very clever, I might add... As no one could prove to another that the concept being put forth, and the resulting books are or are not from the prime source...

For such things, you have to go with combined research, and intuition...With intuition as the most reliable...

My intuition says - Buyer beware, scam alert...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


So I guess you would discount the plethora of Old Testament prophecies pointing to Jesus Christ?

Can you also discount the non-biblical scholars and historians in the first century that establish the historic basis of Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel?

If you don't discount them, then how does this work into the sales-pitch?

As for me, I draw my faith from one undeniable fact: I am living proof of a life RADICALLY changed by the resurrecting power of Jesus Christ. And straight up, that is real.
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Essentially, yes I would discount them...

I would discount them in terms of spiritual reality, but, not discount them in learning how the control mechanism works...

Life can and is radfically changed by recognising that the spirit stream animating your body is real, it has for me, and I can relate to you...

But, you have missed the point - the point being - religious teachings say this is the work of a jesus christ, I say it is not...Advancing spiritually is recognising who you are... Religion is designed to catch you in this advancing state, and try to contain you...

If you completely woke up to who you are, then all control mechanisms on this planet go poof for you... If sufficient numbers did this, the game/jig is up...

Do you now see the purpose of religious structure??? I don't think so, but, I tried...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129


Time out -- I have not palate for religion. I am a follower of Jesus because I am a life radically changed by Jesus Christ – a power much greater than myself that could change me from my powerless state of existence.

I look around and don’t have to look far to understand that we exist in a fallen world. This is paradise lost. It’s like witnessesing a shipwreck – a treasure ship that was destroyed, and all that is left are scattered pieces of beauty. This is a fallen world.

God is perfect love. God is perfect justice. How do the two reconcile in a fallen world? For me, the answer was simple: Perfect love met perfect justice at the cross. There is nothing good in me and there is no way I can account for the things I've done. However, I wear the righteousness of Christ. And because of that afforded grace, I am changed... and I am free.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor 12:9,10
 Quoting: Adventus Domini


Sorry, could not respond earlier, work called me out...

I understand your position, does not mean I agree with it, but you have to be, where you have to be, and I respect that...
Don'tBeAfraid

User ID: 33440387
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02/04/2013 10:06 PM

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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Gnostic thought has ZERO in common with Christianity. They're batting for the opposite team. Don't be fooled when they talk as if they're all about hidden knowledge in enlightenment. They really are being reverent to Lucifer, and hense worship Evil. It's a spiritual system based upon the opposite of Christianity. Their motto is "Do as though wilt...". There is no good or evil in that system.

It is an abomination.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Lucifer is a made up part of the game, and it accounts for the crap the manipulators were going to pull off on this planet...

The Christian thought;

It is supernatural, nothing we can do about it... We have to wait until god, jesus takes care of the situation...Just be good, be re-born, don't sin anymore, be as little children, and you will be in heaven with me...
Talk about diffusing any real resistance...

Witches and Warlocks were burned at the stake for awakening to their nature... There is power in occult knowledge, and no, it is not evil in itself, it is neutral... The use of it lies with the holder, and it can be used for so-called evil, or so-called good, or balance purposes...

The churches did not want this knowledge to spread, and dealt with the situation, in a matter of fact gruesome manner... In other words, the jig would have been up, if it was not contained...

The thought is not, "do as though wilt"... The thought is "grow in spiritual knowledge", and take full responsibility for yourself...

The true abomination, the true evil, is Christianity...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129

You know, people think of Islam as the enemy of Christendom. It's not really. The real enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are Gnostics.

People like you who worship evil throughout history but then deny that evil exists, you're the spawn of Lucifer himself.

We are true enemies as far as I concerned, for your Master is the Beast who serial killers, rapists, child molesters, etc also worship.

I'm always glad to shine on a light on Gnostics. You all worship the most vile being imaginable.

Last Edited by Don'tBeAfraid on 02/04/2013 10:07 PM
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17551129
Canada
02/04/2013 10:17 PM
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Re: Thread for Atheists & Christians - STFU
Gnostic thought has ZERO in common with Christianity. They're batting for the opposite team. Don't be fooled when they talk as if they're all about hidden knowledge in enlightenment. They really are being reverent to Lucifer, and hense worship Evil. It's a spiritual system based upon the opposite of Christianity. Their motto is "Do as though wilt...". There is no good or evil in that system.

It is an abomination.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


Lucifer is a made up part of the game, and it accounts for the crap the manipulators were going to pull off on this planet...

The Christian thought;

It is supernatural, nothing we can do about it... We have to wait until god, jesus takes care of the situation...Just be good, be re-born, don't sin anymore, be as little children, and you will be in heaven with me...
Talk about diffusing any real resistance...

Witches and Warlocks were burned at the stake for awakening to their nature... There is power in occult knowledge, and no, it is not evil in itself, it is neutral... The use of it lies with the holder, and it can be used for so-called evil, or so-called good, or balance purposes...

The churches did not want this knowledge to spread, and dealt with the situation, in a matter of fact gruesome manner... In other words, the jig would have been up, if it was not contained...

The thought is not, "do as though wilt"... The thought is "grow in spiritual knowledge", and take full responsibility for yourself...

The true abomination, the true evil, is Christianity...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17551129

You know, people think of Islam as the enemy of Christendom. It's not really. The real enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are Gnostics.

People like you who worship evil throughout history but then deny that evil exists, you're the spawn of Lucifer himself.

We are true enemies as far as I concerned, for your Master is the Beast who serial killers, rapists, child molesters, etc also worship.

I'm always glad to shine on a light on Gnostics. You all worship the most vile being imaginable.
 Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid


You can think whatever you like, and move in whatever direction you want...You are simply a part of the game of control on this planet, nothing more, and you have proven that point by your post...

You are really clueless as to the nature of existence in this galaxy, and your spoon fed nonsence is getting very stale...

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